Bonding dilemma

[growler]

So I turned up to a job today to install an electric heating system for a company I sub for and straight away found that there is no main bonding to either gas or water. They have recently had a new extension / kitchen and a new consumer unit ( no cert though). The gas bond is not an issue as the meter is located next to the consumer unit but the water bond is a fair distance away and the customer is adamant he doesn't want me to disrupt his house anymore than it is already. I can't just walk away either as their wet system Central heating has been removed and the couple are in there 70s.
what to do ?

 

[Knobhead]

BTW, the above is only really applicable to internal faults. Up until the 16[SUP]th[/SUP] (I think) it was a requirement to fit a jumper across the meter. That’s going back to pre alkathene gas supplies and there was a distinct possibility of a PD across the meter due the pipe unions.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Pretty sure that the jumper cable is still used today.
Or supposed to be.

 

[Geordie Spark]

BTW, the above is only really applicable to internal faults. Up until the 16[SUP]th[/SUP] (I think) it was a requirement to fit a jumper across the meter. That’s going back to pre alkathene gas supplies and there was a distinct possibility of a PD across the meter due the pipe unions.

Yes, the permanent link between the incoming and outgoing pipes to the meter has been done away with and the bond is now fitted to the outlet side of the meter only BUT when the meter is removed we are "supposed" to fit a temporary bond between the incoming & outgoing pipes like this >>>

so the question that I can't get my head around is WHY did we have to get rid of the permanent link in the first place??

 

[Deleted account]

Yes, the permanent link between the incoming and outgoing pipes to the meter has been done away with and the bond is now fitted to the outlet side of the meter only BUT when the meter is removed we are "supposed" to fit a temporary bond between the incoming & outgoing pipes like this >>>

so the question that I can't get my head around is WHY did we have to get rid of the permanent link in the first place??

Possibly because the gas supply is not recognised as a route to earth. The only reason we bond to the meter at all is for equal potential within the building. In the good old days I believe you could use the gas pipe as the main earth route.

 

[davesparks]

Possibly because the gas supply is not recognised as a route to earth. The only reason we bond to the meter at all is for equal potential within the building. In the good old days I believe you could use the gas pipe as the main earth route.

The earliest reference I have is from the 1930s and at that time it was not permitted to use a gas service as an earth connection. It was required that a towns metal water service be used as an earth connection though.

 

[Deleted account]

The earliest reference I have is from the 1930s and at that time it was not permitted to use a gas service as an earth connection. It was required that a towns metal water service be used as an earth connection though.

Wow impressed. Where did you get the 1930's ref.

 

[Geordie Spark]

Possibly because the gas supply is not recognised as a route to earth. The only reason we bond to the meter at all is for equal potential within the building. In the good old days I believe you could use the gas pipe as the main earth route.

Yes I understand it was often the route to earth as was the water pipe as well.

What I don't understand is we used to link the inlet and the outlet pipes together with a bit of green wire but now we don't because we're told the meter provides the continuity so if we have to remove a meter we are required to temporarily link them with this temporary bond before doing so and leave it in place until after the meter is re-instated.

So WHY did we stop linking the inlet & outlet in the first place?? :thinking::confused5:

 

[davesparks]

Wow impressed. Where did you get the 1930's ref.

Stubbs electrical encyclopaedia

 

[Deleted account]

Yes I understand it was often the route to earth as was the water pipe as well.

What I don't understand is we used to link the inlet and the outlet pipes together with a bit of green wire but now we don't because we're told the meter provides the continuity so if we have to remove a meter we are required to temporarily link them with this temporary bond before doing so and leave it in place until after the meter is re-instated.

So WHY did we stop linking the inlet & outlet in the first place?? :thinking::confused5:

yeah. I get your point. It wouldn't be much hardship to do.

There is probably a very intelligent reason why. It just needs a very intelligent member to let us know.:conehead: Any out there?

 

[Geordie Spark]

yeah. I get your point. It wouldn't be much hardship to do.

There is probably a very intelligent reason why. It just needs a very intelligent member to let us know.:conehead: Any out there?

The debate on that could easily run to 200 pages!!

But getting back to the gas thing, it's drummed into the gas blokes to ALWAYS fit that temporary bond before removing the meter and only take it off once the meter is refitted.

When it's assessment time, the assessor will want to see that we have that bond in our toolbox and a spare manometer hose - among other things.

 

[Deleted account]

The debate on that could easily run to 200 pages!!

But getting back to the gas thing, it's drummed into the gas blokes to ALWAYS fit that temporary bond before removing the meter and only take it off once the meter is refitted.

When it's assessment time, the assessor will want to see that we have that bond in our toolbox and a spare manometer hose - among other things.

Yes I've been thru the gas safe course and on my pre assessment assesment I forgot the bonding clamps. Instant fail:nonod: so I understand the bond is important whilst removing meter.

 

[Geordie Spark]

Yes I've been thru the gas safe course and on my pre assessment assesment I forgot the bonding clamps. Instant fail:nonod: so I understand the bond is important whilst removing meter.

Oh dear!!

You won't to that again!

I was pulled for not having a spare manometer hose so I cut the 1 metre long one I had in half & all was good.

 

[jonny705]

Hey this is an interesting debate/thread :0

Could anyone tell me why we don't bond metal kitchen sinks no more, when the Kitchen has the most electrical appliances in the house and is always inevitably near water?

I asked my lecturer years ago, and he said it was dropped because a line fault at the C/B could introduce a 240v potential at sink- although never could quite get my head round it!

I have had lots of houses with no Earth in Lighting circuit and they want me to fit Stainless class 1 Fittings, they simply don't want to know about the earth problem!

Also if Bonding from (normally tap) needs to be enlarged, if its round front/back of house therefore cable itself is dollar , let lone potential disruption of decorating its like they think you are deceiving them (been here 1-100yrs etc and never had a problem just do it, no worries they say!).

I simply wont do it! my altitude is if, they electrocuted themselves if a fault occurred they would sue the life out of me!

If I got took to court , is it not correct, that the prosecution would use the Current IEE regs to prove my incompetence in the fact that I, even knowing about it myself (competent person) , chose to ignore it?

Saying that they didn't want pay for uprated bonding/new earthing , (although i told them) and the fact that I have changed a old fuse board to a RCD equipped one would be my only form of defence, and I for one would not like to rely on that!

 

[Deleted account]

Hey this is an interesting debate/thread :0

Could anyone tell me why we don't bond metal kitchen sinks no more, when the Kitchen has the most electrical appliances in the house and is always inevitably near water?

I asked my lecturer years ago, and he said it was dropped because a line fault at the C/B could introduce a 240v potential at sink- although never could quite get my head round it!

I have had lots of houses with no Earth in Lighting circuit and they want me to fit Stainless class 1 Fittings, they simply don't want to know about the earth problem!

Also if Bonding from (normally tap) needs to be enlarged, if its round front/back of house therefore cable itself is dollar , let lone potential disruption of decorating its like they think you are deceiving them (been here 1-100yrs etc and never had a problem just do it, no worries they say!).

I simply wont do it! my altitude is if, they electrocuted themselves if a fault occurred they would sue the life out of me!

If I got took to court , is it not correct, that the prosecution would use the Current IEE regs to prove my incompetence in the fact that I, even knowing about it myself (competent person) , chose to ignore it?

Saying that they didn't want pay for uprated bonding/new earthing , (although i told them) and the fact that I have changed a old fuse board to a RCD equipped one would be my only form of defence, and I for one would not like to rely on that!

You really should have done the bonding before the CU replacement. Ok maybe you didn't know it wasn't there before the you started the change as far as I am concerned its a mistake you have made therefore you need to put it right at your expence if customer refuses to pay.

I have learnt from my mistakes in the past by not doing a thorough enough pre works check and been in exactly this position. I explained to customer who point blank refused to pay any extra, so I did it anyway at no extra expence. The customer then realising I wasn't trying it on actually offered to pay.
i asked for material costs only as it was my mistake I hadn't spotted the problem prior to work. I have since been back to that customers house and done further works.

everone happy and regs fulfilled :smile5:

 

[Deleted account]

Sorry Jonny 705, I've just re read your thread and realise you weren't quoting yourself. You were in fact giving unacceptable scenarios. Spot on totally agree.

Will endevour our to read posts properly from now on.:dunce2: