Bonding dilemma

[growler]

So I turned up to a job today to install an electric heating system for a company I sub for and straight away found that there is no main bonding to either gas or water. They have recently had a new extension / kitchen and a new consumer unit ( no cert though). The gas bond is not an issue as the meter is located next to the consumer unit but the water bond is a fair distance away and the customer is adamant he doesn't want me to disrupt his house anymore than it is already. I can't just walk away either as their wet system Central heating has been removed and the couple are in there 70s.
what to do ?

 

[Deleted member 9648]

There’s sodding labels for everything else why not one that says where the bonding connections are.

600mm is pure convenience and has no merit in electrical theory.

Now stop winding me up Archy, I’m having a bad day!

See post #85 if you don't understand the reason a main bond needs to be at the point of entry.

 

[Knobhead]

I always mark on the cert and board where the bonding is ,there are some houses you have not a clue where the incoming water is as there is no stop tap ,so there's a dilemma, if its accessible then its within 600mm , and belive you me i will go to every length possible to get it there, if its not then its where practical and note it on the Cert and board

That says it all, thank you

 

[Essex_]

I always mark on the cert and board where the bonding is ,there are some houses you have not a clue where the incoming water is as there is no stop tap ,so there's a dilemma, if its accessible then its within 600mm , and belive you me i will go to every length possible to get it there, if its not then its where practical and note it on the Cert and board

There is a specific part of the new amendment 3 certs for putting locations of bonding and special locations which now have to be listed.

 

[Knobhead]

See post #85 if you don't understand the reason a main bond needs to be at the point of entry.

Oh deary me, why don’t they teach electrical theory now.

Just because the IET say something is right it doesn’t make it right. They seem to think they can change the laws of physics for the convenience of the uneducated.

 

[GMES]

There’s sodding labels for everything else why not one that says where the bonding connections are.

600mm is pure convenience and has no merit in electrical theory.

Now stop winding me up Archy, I’m having a bad day!

Here you go Tony these might cheer you up if you're having a bad day

 

[telectrix]

the gorilla lives! flash is alive!

 

[Silly Sausage]

There’s sodding labels for everything else why not one that says where the bonding connections are.

Don't mention labels, you'll trip Eng's Labels sensor.

600mm is pure convenience and has no merit in electrical theory.

We know!

Now stop winding me up Archy, I’m having a bad day!

Sorry Chief, my psychic powers aren't working today.

 

[Darkwood]

On the note of bonding ... and reminded me by Tonys csa of the copper pipe....consider a commercial or industrial set-up with a TNCS supply that would to reg's require a 50mm earthing conductor to ensure any network faults could piggy back the pipework if necessary - if point of bonding etc is attached or the incoming service is small in nature then the pipe itself is not sufficient to meet the required size - what to do?

 

[Biff61]

Would seem your relating to the OP specific circumstances, the thread has developed since then and thus I was talking in general terms and not the OP's situe.. we seem to be both expressing the same message from different angles but your previous post was a little ambiguous and suggested you could write away a responsibility just because the customer has been informed 'well that's how it read to me' , from this post it seems thats not what you were meaning so seems we do agree after all. :stooge_curly:

Am on the same page, but I feel there is too much of an onus on sparks coming in on a recent install to fix the omissions and mistakes of the muppet who originally did the install without getting paid for it because the regs state it should be done.
If it was a quick fix and it was only a bonding strap and a couple of meters of cable I would do it no problem, but when it means that you have to spend time and money and the client does not want to pay for it then its a different matter.
It would be helpful if we had some form of check list like you get with your MOT, any faults found have to be rectified before the vehicle is fit for purpose.The MOT centre once it gives you this list has passed its duty of care and if you then decide to drive then any accidents that can be seen to be caused by the list of defects given to you are your fault.
The same should be with wiring, give the owner a list of the defects that have to be rectified and a good reason why they must be corrected before you commence any work, and if they give the go ahead ensure you are paid for it.

I work for a global Humanitarian agency through out East and Central Africa, the nightmares i see every day would make your hair stand, getting materials is a lengthy process so when I have to remedy any work it can take a long time,in the meantime I usually have to try and make the installation as safe as I can possibly do.
The local sparks are about as much use as a chocolate fireguard, standards do not exist, bonding and earthing "what's that?"
practical skills,
ok list of the things Ive seen
Drilling steel with the drill on hammer
Unable to put an SDS bit in the drill.
Using a blowtorch to heat 20mm PVC to bend, without a spring, and the spring is sitting there beside him.
twisting and taping cables from 1.5 to 120sq to make a join.
Using a hammer to put on lugs
A spirit level is non existent.
Just spent this morning teaching the contractors we have in to install new UPS powered sockets and LAN cable how to cut and bend cable tray.
I have one guy who takes the word hack in hacksawliterally, he would be better off with an Axe.

If they have training, it has been two years in college learning theory, which they are good at but a lot of my time is spent teaching the basics of practical work, and they will still revert to the old practices if you do not keep on their necks.
if I was able to upload pictures it would explain an awful lot, but it asks for an URL, anyone one know how I can upload straight from my pics folder.

New building codes are being introduced here in Ethiopia, the are adapted and adopted from the IEEE, Canadian and Australian regs, but they are only as good if they are implemented.

 

[Darkwood]

I think your missing the point, we are not just talking about a minor deviation/omission here we are talking about the earthing system (safety net) of the install,it was at one point just a precaution regarding the possibility of touch voltage PD between services and earthed points usually during a fault but with the introduction of PME/TNCS the extra concern of network issues where your pipework may become the return path for a E/N fault. This situe' has only been more so highlighted by the spate of cable theft where the earthtap of the 11kv Tx's were been pinched leaving many houses with dangerous and damaging floating neutrals - this is where the bonding can reflect its importance.

Your experience with other nations and their practices and regulations seems to have made you slightly complacent to the importance of bonding when it is required over here in the U of K .... you need to realise that this importance is drilled into us at college and anyone choosing to ignore it or make it optional is not a competent Electrician, we have a career of following in the footsteps of shoddy below standard or dated work so how is this any different to that, as i said 'If the main earth was missing then you wouldn't hesitate in putting it in' so why is the requirement of the bonding any different considering the job they do.

 

[Biff61]

my experience with other nations makes me even more aware of the requirement for correct earthing and bonding. On one install in South Sudan I buried over $6000 of solid copper rods and bare 35mm copper earth strap in charcoal, salt and bentonite to ensure I complied with the regs, I never compromise on safety.I ensure that any upgrade or new install is done according to 17th Edition.That is why I am employed, to ensure best practice and standards are met, there have been too many injuries, deaths and property damage caused by poor methods and no standards applied.
what I'm trying to get across is this,if you turn up at a customers premises you are not legally obliged to immediately fix the incorrect work of others, no one can hold a gun to your head and say you must do this or else, you have the right to walk away.
The requirement for bonding is sacrosanct I agree and it must be done.
However, if you do take on the job, then you must do it for your installation to comply, no ifs or buts about it.

 

[Darkwood]

my experience with other nations makes me even more aware of the requirement for correct earthing and bonding. On one install in South Sudan I buried over $6000 of solid copper rods and bare 35mm copper earth strap in charcoal, salt and bentonite to ensure I complied with the regs, I never compromise on safety.I ensure that any upgrade or new install is done according to 17th Edition.That is why I am employed, to ensure best practice and standards are met, there have been too many injuries, deaths and property damage caused by poor methods and no standards applied.
what I'm trying to get across is this,if you turn up at a customers premises you are not legally obliged to immediately fix the incorrect work of others, no one can hold a gun to your head and say you must do this or else, you have the right to walk away.
The requirement for bonding is sacrosanct I agree and it must be done.
However, if you do take on the job, then you must do it for your installation to comply, no ifs or buts about it.

I never disputed that point and have always agreed ... if the customer is not willing to pay or refuses to have it done then just walk away .. If you go ahead and do any work the you will be required to address any earthingbonding issues that are considered a hazard before you sign off your work.

 

[Octopus]

I never disputed that point and have always agreed ... if the customer is not willing to pay or refuses to have it done then just walk away ..If you go aheadand do any work the you will be required to address any earthingbonding issues that are considered a hazard before you sign off your work.

And the number of prosecutions for failing to do this this are?

 

[Darkwood]

And the number of prosecutions for failing to do this this are?

This is an empty point you make, yes the circumstances to all come together and a fatality to occur are very rare but never the less they exist in a big enough risk catagory to warrant the IET to make it part of the regulations, where ever we see regulations of such nature then there is usually a valid reason for their implementation, I have seen 1 customer and 1 plumber receive nasty shocks off pipework due to floating PD in my 25yr career that could have been avoided but through lack of compliance or aged install it was the case they were put at risk...

I sleep well at night knowing I have made sure the earthing set-up is at least functional if existing or upgraded if substandard, it does not loose me work and I've never really been turned down because I have shown it needs doing, anyone with good communication skills would not have a problem steering the customer to having the extra work done.

 

[Octopus]

This is an empty point you make, yes the circumstances to all come together and a fatality to occur are very rare but never the less they exist in a big enough risk catagory to warrant the IET to make it part of the regulations, where ever we see regulations of such nature then there is usually a valid reason for their implementation, I have seen 1 customer and 1 plumber receive nasty shocks off pipework due to floating PD in my 25yr career that could have been avoided but through lack of compliance or aged install it was the case they were put at risk...

I sleep well at night knowing I have made sure the earthing set-up is at least functional if existing or upgraded if substandard, it does not loose me work and I've never really been turned down because I have shown it needs doing, anyone with good communication skills would not have a problem steering the customer to having the extra work done.

??????