Brexit court defeat for UK government

[Darkwood]

We have a legative process. That process was used when we joined the EU. The EU referendum was bound by legislation that enabled the result to be acted upon without further parliamentary control.
That process could have been used in this referendum. It wasn't. The vote was an indication of the peoples wish.
The brexit and remain leaflets carry no legal status (and good job to as much was lies) they are just prmises and thjreats to sway votes. They convey no legal status. Any more than the double glazing flyers I get that insist my windows must be upgraded. Just because its on a leaflet doesn't make it true or legally binding.

The fact is the Tory government botched the referendum process and now we all suffer the result of trying to workout a sensible path forwards.
Laughably the previous dire state of our economy is now what seems to have been the good times. Much like a nice war we are now in such a poor state we'll not even notice as things slip away.

As for another referendum. Why do we have General elections every 4 or 5 years? Surely if the people decide on a political direction then why ask again in 4 years? Maybe because things change? Maybe things have changed since the referendum?
Maybe things like the actual amount being in the EU costs us and gains us not being what we were told?
Maybe like the fact that we are unlikely to be able to have access to all the things we were promised be the Brexit campaign?

As many have said parliament and the government should via specialist advisors looked at the pros and cons of being in the EU and presented a case to parliament that parliament could have presented to the people.

What we got was a sham and a disgrace.

You need to look up how we actually joined the EU, you'll find we were taken into it by illegal acts of Heath not asking the public nor the parliment on whether we should join, under British law he had to do this, when he got back and announced what he had done he was questioned why he didn't consult parliment or the people, his response was 'because they would have said no!'

It is also worthy to note that it pointed out to him that he has not signed a trade deal but infact signed the UK to desolve it powers and rights and even its currency up to the EU, he said I know.

So this legal angle about parliament having a vote that was taken to the high court used legislation imposed on the UK from the EU, if we want to really play the legative process to the T then we are not legally a member of the EU as the legal formal process was not used and we were signed in by the illegal acts of one man, giving this then in reality all imposed laws and legislation from the EU are not actually legally binding but given this was all done 4decades ago and behind the curtains then we have desolved all legal processes of challenging it well I say desolved, in fact I mean the ability to legally challenge the method in which we joined the EU was quickly removed from our powers by guess who ..yes the EU. Also to note the very legistlation the parliament is using to challenge for a parlimentary vote on enacting article 50 will be scrapped following brexit (the irony).

This is how politics works and has always worked, the politicians are self interested and the man on the street is an inconvenience until they need there support.

Ok so you mention and probably refering to the brexit bus I assume in that what it said was not the actual cost as we get some back, I don't think you understand the EU process here, the EU is a wannabe superstate and to become one it needs dependency of its members and where it can, their money... what the EU does is red tapes and legislates the industries and farming etc until they can barely survive then it awards them EU funding, this gives them dependency on membership, then it prevents trade to external markets where it would provide competition to the EU so blocks our economical growth so protect its structure, this limits and slows our growth and ring fences who and how we trade... all of this comes with a cost too of which we get some back in funding , well here is the brilliance of all this - we end up paying into the EU and then part of that is diverted back to supplement certain Industries and projects and especially schooling, colleges and other higher education methods all coming with a PRO -EU message (propaganda), so in context the 350million a week stated is before we get some back but are we really getting any back if the very reason the EU funding is going to these industries and projects is down to the implemented red tape and legislation, and we have little to no say where it goes... The EU has imposed dependency and made us use our own money to support the Industries its purposely crippled, very brilliant indeed if you ask me- on a deeper level then that figure on the bus is grossly under estimated in real terms and should be higher, actually now the figure quoted on the bus will be correct by next year excluding any rebates and EU funding coming back.

I voted Brexit mainly because of what the EU is becoming and what it is doing to the UK to become that, if you want your children and/or grandkids living under a form of dictatorship where the law makers cannot be questioned or voted out then choose to remain, I on the other hand want the next few generations to find anyone making the laws that effect them accountable and for them to have the ability to remove them through democratic process, this is something that no longer can be done to the Brussel Elite and we are still a few decades off that superstate they dream off, ask yourself why all the young seem to love the EU and then ask yourself what all that EU funded money been pumped into the education system was for and I bet you have your answer (propaganda brainwashing the next gen'),

I strongly believe we are better as a nation out of the EU and I have 40yrs of evidence to prove my point, I would take the leap into the dark anyday as oppose to the been pulled further into the quicksand trap that is the EU, it has a failing currency that is on borrowed time, it has mass high levels of youth unemployment across its southern section, it has bankrupt countries that cannot be bailed out no longer, it has mass immigration that is buckling the very core values of the EU and causing it members to rebel and ignore EU policies, it has drawn up designs on taking money direct out of yours and my pocket by bringing in an EU identity number for every citizen, once that is done it leaves us open to having an EU tax implemented to every person be it on there income pension or savings... these are not scare mongering like you see with remain campaign this is reality and is or has happened, so I would appreciate it that remainers don't make sweeping statements that we were scammed, misled or cheated, many of us actually voted because know our stuff and/or researched it, Brexit is what I believe is best regardless of the shambles of the referendum campaigns by both sides, so there is an incite to why I voted the way I did, I agree in that we should never of had that vote under those terms it was introduced but it's an opportunity I know would never come by again.

 

[Pat H]

I'd disagree that many Brexit voters where informed and voted with knowledge. I'd say some where. I've met none who where. The vast majority fall into the the protest vote they didn't expect to make a difference or the plsin simple send the foreigner back expectation vote.
That said I'm also sure a lot of remain voters had no idea what was going on.

 

[Darkwood]

I counter your argument as you have already done for me that many remainers were not informed about the true cost of remaining in the EU and the path it was taking us, given these facts then I have more confidence that Brexit would have won by a bigger margin, I also hi-light that many remainers didn't know or understand the many negatives and the damage the EU has done already and all we heard was stronger together or better at the table, these are just sound bites but in an election they are powerful weapons as the public in general doesn't understand the core politics that they are really voting for.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

To my mind neither side presented truthful arguments to support their cases.
The get rid of immigrants are going to be the most disappointed, though I hope the lack of WWIII will be a relief to many.

 

[Pat H]

The vote did one thing well. It divided tge country. We now have half the country seen as racist and inward looking and the other half trying to understand how it could have happened.
That split is also a generation split with the latter being the younger generation.
Now divided I can't see anyway to reunite.
The country is damaged and will be for a generation or more.
Depending on how things develop we may see more of the young leave the UK, my 2 sons are looking at Canada as tgeir next home. They don't want to live in a country that has the views it does.
My work has involved a lot of what europe has gained for the UK and I think its been a big plus. My only regret is we never fully participated and prefered to sit on the fence trying to hedge our bets which then ensured we didn't get our full say.
As for WW3 well a Trump win now looks posssible based on the US voters looking as racist as the UK voters and I can't see Trump bringing calm to the world.
The world isn't a safer place going diwn the isolatist route. Safety has more chance when we join and work together.

I now wonder how the Brexit voters are going to feel and vote when their non white bulldog british community members aren't sent home. Even if we could close the immigration door it doesn't change the current position. And every voice so far has said immigration probably won't change much.

 

[Darkwood]

The vote did one thing well. It divided tge country. We now have half the country seen as racist and inward looking and the other half trying to understand how it could have happened.
That split is also a generation split with the latter being the younger generation.
Now divided I can't see anyway to reunite.
The country is damaged and will be for a generation or more.
Depending on how things develop we may see more of the young leave the UK, my 2 sons are looking at Canada as tgeir next home. They don't want to live in a country that has the views it does.
My work has involved a lot of what europe has gained for the UK and I think its been a big plus. My only regret is we never fully participated and prefered to sit on the fence trying to hedge our bets which then ensured we didn't get our full say.
As for WW3 well a Trump win now looks posssible based on the US voters looking as racist as the UK voters and I can't see Trump bringing calm to the world.
The world isn't a safer place going diwn the isolatist route. Safety has more chance when we join and work together.

I now wonder how the Brexit voters are going to feel and vote when their non white bulldog british community members aren't sent home. Even if we could close the immigration door it doesn't change the current position. And every voice so far has said immigration probably won't change much.

I very much doubt your sons wish to leave the UK directly because of the result of the referendum, Judging by your responses and negative language towards anyone who voted for leave, I would suggest you have had some part to play in how the see the UK, whether you realise it or not, your children do often pick up on parental views, the area you live in and the local media will also shape their views on the matter, maybe they have freinds who do get racial abuse thus are sensitive to the larger media comments coming out about the Brexit issue, from your working point of view and experience will probably edge naturally towards a pro-biased view and that's your angle and I respect that but you repeatedly react in your posts with negative comment and slurs aimed at brexiteers and this in itself show it's your attitude that creates the divide and probably more so than the far right take on Immigration you seem to paint all the brexiteers with, there are a very small number of far right activists/voters out there but they do do alot of damage, it's natural for them to vote for brexit because the language that is aimed at normal voters also appeals to them in a very different way to what its intent was meant for, 'take our country back' - 'control immigration' all mean something totally different to a far right person than any other member of the public for example the 'take our country back was a reference to the extent our powers and laws now all come from Brussels, to a far right person it is clearly in their minds it means take our country back for the white British citizen..... guess which view the remainers and far left media latched onto?.. Considering the far right only account for a fraction of 1% of the voters for brexit, I find it both annoying and frustrating that all 17million are tarred with the same brush.
You also have to realise the younger generation have been schooled now with Pro- EU propaganda and this is another plot from the EU to ensure countries become dependent, even though I have expressed all of this and can back up anything I say, I find your responses are just reactionary and you don't seem to bring anything to the table to back your views up. So why is staying in the EU better, what is your reply to the many claims I have made about the EU, its easy to be a vocal warrior on the matter and make comments like 'I wander how the brexiters are going to feel and vote when their non white.....etc' which is IMHO just as bad as the attitude Far Right Activists have to immigrants ... with all respect to your input and views which are yours to express, your coming across as a big part of the problem here regarding the country divide as oppose to someone with genuine views and a good argument base to back it up.

I don't go around complaining about the PRO EU voter been anti British, nor do I tar them all with a one brush attitude, no because I understand they voted for many different reasons to want to remain in the EU, some for personel reasons others for much broader views and here's the thing, that's every persons right to use there view to demonstrate in a vote, its almost shameful to see the language and distaste created by the far left and biased media on anyone wishing to leave, I bet the many relevent points I made for my views had never even entered your mind during the debates as I didn't see these core reasons myself in any of them so I do argue that staying within the EU was like staying on a train when you can see the track is out ahead, yes you jump off and maybe into the unknown but at least you don't end up in the mangle when its derailed at high speed.

 

[Pat H]

My gripe, and yes it is a gripe, is that many many families will tip over the edge during the next 3,5,7 or more years as the economy dips and struggles during the brexit process. At best that will be a few years and hopefully only minor but we suffered years of Austerity to get were we where and that's all been thrown out the window.
How do we live with the children of families that will be ----ed aside unable to manage and cope? Those children will be the next decades adults.

Via the vote many made a longer term gamble on the backs of short term costs and those costs are peoples lives.
I don't consider myself anti British but I also don't consider the Britain of the past as anything to go back to. Slavery, colonisation the stripping of other lands for their resources. All great at the time but not something I feel we should hark back to.
So I saw Great Britian as moving forwards and forwards isn't backwards which it is now.

I don't see immigrants as "others" as lesser. I see them as people and part of a community. As long as we all contribute we all gain.

Apart from forums I don't get to meet any Brexit voters who have a considered view. Many just won't even mention it now and those that do troop out the lines you hear reported on TV. "We need to get rid of foreigners and be great again like we were promised".
At that point there's not really much you can say to them. They have been fed misinformation for years and made promises that just can't be met but you can't undo that in one conversation. Or even two or three.

 

[Darkwood]

My argument is that the EU itself has already created this reality, destroyed Industries and imposed laws and legislation that has tipped many families over the edge, you seem too blinkered in your views that this is a one way street and ignore the fact that the outcome of the Brexit is an unkown yet we have 40yrs of actual evidence of the pro's and con's of been part of the EU. You have to remember that the EU was supposed to be just a free trade block but now due to its desires and blindsight it has destroyed the economies of many of its members, we are lucky we haven't because we are one of the top economies but been part of the EU has greatly limited our growth and there is more than enough evidence to the lives its tipped over the edge.

The one biggest worry about the EU and yes it is Immigration is the fact it is uncontrolled, when you have a prosperous country who is part of a block that is adding more and more members from poor economies then there is a massive attraction for all the low skilled population to come across to countries like Germany and the UK and because its uncontrolled it has the effect of when the EU economy is bad and the Euro is failing then we tend to be the only target for legal immigration and this has several negative effects..

It drives wages down for the poor.
It makes big money for the big coorperates who are often using tax avoidance methods thus not putting back into the ecomony
It hits our medical services, the majority of hospitals now have multi-million pound debts to so called benefits tourists, it has over the last 2 decades increased the time it takes to see a doctor from 24hrs to 2weeks in some cases.
It hits housing and guess what, our own needy citizens are coming second to Immigration when it comes to housing.
It hits schooling and education - we now have such a shortage of school places and on top of that we now have such a high number of non- English speaking pupils that it is having a negative effect on the education of our children

There are many more and you may argue that its the government in power that's to blame for not building more houses and schools but you are wrong, there is only so much the infracstructure can cope with until demand outstrips supply and as the EU refuses to recognise anything but the freedom of movement, it can only get worse as the baltic nations join the block..

So I ask you to look at the evidence of past and present which I can present to you to what damage the EU is having on your average family as oppose to some scaremongerer trying to predict the future and proclaiming doom and gloom with no factual evidence.

I get it, you're frustrated and annoyed at the result and I have true sympathy for that, but you also have to realise there are actually 2 sides to any coin and when you say brexit with damage the family on the edge, then what about the damage remaining will do which is actually based on real historical evidence.

It wasn't fun for the families of the ford van plant employees when the EU gave Turkey 80million to sweeten them to a deal to move closer to joining the EU, this 80million was to expand the Turkeys Industry and led to the closure of our own Ford van factories, this is just one of many things that only gets the media at a local level but exposes the EU for what it is and how it treats our membership.

So next time you make these opinions about families been tipped over the edge then consider it has in fact been going on for years but tends to get surpressed as the Government has no control nor does it want to be critised for it, like I say IMHO staying is the worse option and I have yet to see you make a good case for actually remaining that can be backed up.

 

[Pat H]

I'd disagree that it gets supressed. We see billion lost in Tax evasion but see losses to the EU as the headline news. The media and government have used the EU as a scape goat for decades. An easy deflection from enforcing home policies that would make a difference.
And yes of course we could have invested in infrastructure. Homes, schools, transport. Made jobs for UK workers (whatever their colour) but we've been on a path of private investment and strangly they always seem to want to take the easy profit route rather than the long term good of the country route so we get rolled over time and time again. We bailout if they lose they walk away with a profit if they win.
The UK has been shaped to allow the few to make off the backs of the many. And cleverly sold to voters as them all being one of the few.

We have less (had less) control in the EU because we chose not to fully commit. Like a marriage where we still wanted an option to play the field.

I'm not frustrated or annoyed. Its politics and I've been around long enough to know frustration doesn't change things. It will be what it will be. I'll say my part and you'll say yours and little will change.

My kids will do what they think right as will others.

 

[Pat H]

A little childish but fun anyway;
11 effortless self-comforting strategies for Leavers still awaiting Brexit - http://inktank.fi/10-top-self-comforting-strategies-leavers-awaiting-brexit/

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Weird, it's now the EUs fault that industries have moved abroad because of cheaper labour costs?

 

[Pat H]

Its just greed. We don't have british industries as such just companies running them in the UK while it suits.
If more of a profit xan be made outside the UK they layoff and move. Pure money talk.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Watched a documentary about the last shirt manufacturer in Leicester.
All the other manufacturer's had shut down, and they were on the brink of shutting down themselves.
Moved production to China and what they would pay in wages per hour in Britain they payed per week in China.
They now are the biggest manufacturer of shirts in the world.

 

[The Ghost]

When I was young and Ted Heath said well what do you all think of joining the common market? Well we mostly thought it a good idea. Whats not too like we had a market every Saturday in our village and it was great. So a grand european market lots of goods and money exchanging, what could go wrong. Well.... it seems Teddy was not really telling the truth. It seems the Coronation Oath was broken. Tony Blair adroitly repealed the one of the only two remaining laws for which the sentence was hanging by the neck until you were dead,in 1994. One was burning of shipyards (still remains) the other was treason, it was that particulary he got rid of.
I think he was wise in retrospect. Our Sovereign powers of (We the people) were ceded to foreign powers, which is treason at law. We the electorate are to be listened to and obeyed, not the other way around. However it appears that it came about that we are suddenly in an unelected dictatorship or whatever name you would care to call it. We the people did NOT sign up for that. So.... we decided no we will go to our original position: elected persons to do our (the peoples will) will. A government ruled by the people. Do you have a problem with that? Tough, the people have spoken.

 

[telectrix]

as i see it, that gina miller has persued a court case which has decided that by law, parliament has to be involved i n invoking article 50 to exit the EU. fair enough, but as i recall, parliament was never involved in the ted heath entry in the 70's. that was decidede by a referendum in which the majority voted NO, but that heath git decided that the non-voters would have saidd yES if they had bothered to vote, so that was it. we joined illegally, so why should the law be invoked to leave something that we never legally joined?