C-TEC fire alarm compatibility

[oscar21]

Hi, I need to extend a fire alarm, the panel is a CTEC CFP 2 zone one and currently it has a couple of apollo alarm sense sounder bases/heads on it. I fitted 2 extra normal (non-sounder) alarm sense bases and alarm sense heads but the panel is showing a fault on that zone, the fault clears if I bypass the two conventional base's. All the heads work on the sounder bases.

Are the alarm sense conventional bases compatible with the CFP panels because the instructions just show a diode base in the wiring diagrams, if they aren't then why do the alarm sense sounder bases/heads work ok.

Edit - I've just checked the CTEC site and it does say the panels are compatible with the alarm sense stuff. Why would it show a fault then if it clears when you bypass either base, they are definitely wired the correct way round. The bizzare thing is the panel still shows a fault if you put the end of line capacitor in the panel along with the fire alarm circuit if either base is in he circuit it that makes sense.

Edit 2 - I didn't get any instructions with the bases as they were just loose in the package but apparently you don't wire the alarm sense bases across L1 and L2, both browns go in L1. Fancy having an L2 connection then, its just inviting trouble, luckily they are only £3 each.

 

[timhoward]

Another (better) possibility, look at ESP Magfire - I think they make a 12 zone conventional panel. Very basic but it might be your only option.

 

[peteronowak]

Normal conventional is out for reasons above.
Normal addressable is out as you haven't got a loop and manufactures have quite strict rules about spurs that I'm fairly sure you couldn't meet in this case.
So that leave's the special cases....
Twinflex Pro is out as it also has end-of-line.
The only panel I can think of that MAY work is the Infinity ID2 range. I say that because it doesn't use EOL devices, it learns the devices and polls them. I believe it would still work with two radials in one zone. Before taking my word for this please check this is supported by the manufacture. After all this is a critical life saving system.

I'd still highly recommend finding a solution that kept it 'normal' and compatible with the majority of panels.
Is there no way to run a cable between any two devices and discard one of the radials to the panel so you are down to 8 zones?

thanls for the suggestion, well, if I cant find something that will accept my current set up then I will simply have to either re-wire or loose one detector to make it 8 zones

 

[timhoward]

thanls for the suggestion, well, if I cant find something that will accept my current set up then I will simply have to either re-wire or loose one detector to make it 8 zones

Did you see my later thought - ESP Magfire 12 zone

 

[peteronowak]

Did you see my later thought - ESP Magfire 12 zone

Hi Tim, I must have missed that one... thanks, that should sort me out I guess....

 

[timhoward]

Hi Tim, I must have missed that one... thanks, that should sort me out I guess....

Out of interest, how did this cable monkey do the sounder circuits?

 

[peteronowak]

Out of interest, how did this cable monkey do the sounder circuits?

the exact same way as all the detectors and call points... a 2 core cable (at least he used the shielded and fireproof one) from point to point...

So he did one cable for zone 1 sounder (point to point) and another for zone 2 (point to point)

I haven't even checked if this (for the sounders) is ok... I just immediately got upset about the circuit cabling

 

[timhoward]

so he did one cable for zone 1 sounder (point to point) and another for zone 2 (point to point)

I haven't even checked if this (for the sounders) is ok... I just immediately got upset about the circuit cabling

If you are saying you have 2 sounder circuit cables back at the panel it's ok. If you are saying that you have 8 sounder cables back at the panel then this all falls flat as they have EOL devices too.
If the latter the only solution I can see is use a bi-wire system (e.g. Fike Twin flex pro) and combined detector/sounders, and fine a way to either lose a detector or find the simplest cable run between two devices (loft space?) as I'm not aware of an >8 zone bi-wire system.

 

[peteronowak]

If you are saying you have 2 sounder circuit cables back at the panel it's ok. If you are saying that you have 8 sounder cables back at the panel then this all falls flat as they have EOL devices too.
If the latter the only solution I can see is use a bi-wire system (e.g. Fike Twin flex pro) and combined detector/sounders, and fine a way to either lose a detector or find the simplest cable run between two devices (loft space?) as I'm not aware of an >8 zone bi-wire system.

thanks Tim, yes, I have 2 sounder cables back to the central point (where the panel will sit)

one cable is for one sounder, the other cable is for the other sounder

I then have another 9 cables coming to the central point (where the panel will sit) each of these cables are going directly to the devices, 7 of them to detectors, 2 of them to call points.

The cable monkey simply thought that each device will be connected directly to the panel and not in a series.

So now I am trying to find a fire alarm panel that would accept this setup...

Perhaps, if I can't find a panel, then maybe 2 panels can be installed and the devices would be split between them into zones... one would have 5 zones, and a sounder and the other 4 zones and a spunder...

re-wire it into a series would be a pig of a job.... :-(

Many thanks again for all the replies

 

[MReynish6]

Personally just rewire it so it’s done correctly, you’re asking for problems in my opinion. It’s not ideal to have so many zones in such a small system. Have you considered how it and if it meets fire regs etc? Is the commissioning engineer happy for it to be possibly done the way you’re looking at now?

 

[peteronowak]

Personally just rewire it so it’s done correctly, you’re asking for problems in my opinion. It’s not ideal to have so many zones in such a small system. Have you considered how it and if it meets fire regs etc? Is the commissioning engineer happy for it to be possibly done the way you’re looking at now?

yeah I understand it is not ideal having that many zones, I'm just trying to see what would be the best option. re-wire would at the moment be the last thing I would like to do

 

[westward10]

I know what I would be doing. Start van and wave good bye.

 

[peteronowak]

Another (better) possibility, look at ESP Magfire - I think they make a 12 zone conventional panel. Very basic but it might be your only option.

Hi again Tim,

what about this panel (also from CTEK)

FF392-2 FP 12 Zone Conventional Fire Alarm Panel

C-TEC's BS5989-4 compliant FP 12 Zone conventional fire panel c/w 2 sounder circuits. Not suitable for new installations in the EU.

c-tec.com

This would look to me as though it can take 12 zones, so connecting each device up individually and create a zone for each and every device... would that not work?

Obviously also close each device with a EOL...

 

[timhoward]

Hi again Tim,

what about this panel (also from CTEK)

It would work.
The thing it is does say "this panel in not compliant with EN54-2/4 and should NOT be used in new UK or European installations"....
You could do with some advice from a current fire alarm engineer as I got out of this game a long while ago, and can't give you any info about whether the lack of compliance of EN54 on that panel is an issue or not.

 

[peteronowak]

It would work.
The thing it is does say "this panel in not compliant with EN54-2/4 and should NOT be used in new UK or European installations"....
You could do with some advice from a current fire alarm engineer as I got out of this game a long while ago, and can't give you any info about whether the lack of compliance of EN54 on that panel is an issue or not.

aha... indeed well spotted Tim, I did not catch that... well, I will try to get in touch with someone to hear about this non compliant issue... and to hear if there is perhaps a panel that would support 12 individual zones and be compliant

 

[westward10]

What is the story behind this. Was it your job to design and install the system or are you trying to patch up someone else's mess.