C3s putting you in harms way ??

[old man sparky]

My nice modern car (11 years old) does it automagically. It's quite fun to watch it when the clocks go back, because as well as the digital ones it also has an analogue clock, and the hands don't go backwards, so the first time you turn the ignition on after the end of BST they whizz forwards 11 hours.

My previous car needed me to do it. I just left it on GMT all year round.

Yep mines on auto now, so next winter should be ok. But I needed that ruddy book to sort it. Very disappointed in myself. ?

 

[Soi disant]

Edited for clarity:

I don't think that those who do their best have little to fear from lawyers

Did you mean that, or did you mean that you do think that those who do their best to follow guidance etc have little to fear?

In any event, I suspect the biggest fear people should have is not being held to account after some dreadful incident, it's having their report challenged or their payment refused or a refund of it sought by a landlord over disputed C2s.

 

[Soi disant]

Yep mines on auto now, so next winter should be ok. But I needed that ruddy book to sort it. Very disappointed in myself. ?

Didn't buy mine new - IHNI if auto/manual BST switching was something someone had to select in the past.

 

[loz2754]

I have been driving for over forty years. When I had to change to summer time on the clock in my nice modern car. Like most men I felt I had enough experience to do so without searching through a 90 page users manual. Alas!! after half an hour of cursing and cussing I succumbed. And arriving at menu option 6 setting 22, managed to get the bloody time right. So much for experience and not needing books ??.

Nice story. But there's a significant difference between an instruction manual for a specific appliance, and a guidebook designed to take the place of experience (eg. Codebreakers).

Our instruction manual is mainly BS7671, which can be learned and an exam passed on knowledge of its contents, in a matter of a few days. But, as I'm sure many will agree, to be able to look in detail at an existing installation with a view to making recommendations (which could have cost implications along with safety of life implications) takes several years of on the job experience, to do it right.

As I have said, these guides can be useful, but it seems many newly qualified electricians are setting themselves up to do EICRs, using ONLY these guides to help them make their recommendations (because they lack the necessary experience), and getting it very wrong in many cases.

 

[Dartlec]

Edited for clarity:


Did you mean that, or did you mean that you do think that those who do their best to follow guidance etc have little to fear?

In any event, I suspect the biggest fear people should have is not being held to account after some dreadful incident, it's having their report challenged or their payment refused or a refund of it sought by a landlord over disputed C2s.

Joys of editing and changing one clause but not another - as hopefully the rest makes clear I don't think those who make best efforts to follow guidance etc have MUCH to fear as things stand.

No-one should ever be arrogant enough to not occasionally question their own judgement or seek a third party verification or advice - the issue seems to be that what is available is not clear or consistent, or from a source that is so authoritative that it cannot be disputed (not necessarily by lawyers - they will dispute or support anyway as that is their whole method of working).

 

[Soi disant]

Our instruction manual is mainly BS7671, which can be learned and an exam passed on knowledge of its contents, in a matter of a few days.

Strictly speaking an exam passed on being able to find things in the index....

 

[Dartlec]

As I have said, these guides can be useful, but it seems many newly qualified electricians are setting themselves up to do EICRs, using ONLY these guides to help them make their recommendations (because they lack the necessary experience), and getting it very wrong in many cases.

I completely agree with this - but have also seen reports from supposedly experienced well qualified inspectors who have got it just as wrong, so it is not necessarily just the lack of experience, but a wider issue - probably involving training, CPD, guidance from others, market pressure on cost/time, how society sees the 'profession' etc.

 

[loz2754]

I completely agree with this - but have also seen reports from supposedly experienced well qualified inspectors who have got it just as wrong, so it is not necessarily just the lack of experience, but a wider issue - probably involving training, CPD, guidance from others, market pressure on cost/time, how society sees the 'profession' etc.

I agree @Dartlec. Correct and appropriate training is an absolute must. Coupled with the experience.
Some have the training and qualifications, but not the experience.
Experience is pretty much useless without a bedrock of training/qualifications.
The two go hand in hand.

A good point too about market pressure.

 

[Dartlec]

I agree @Dartlec. Correct and appropriate training is an absolute must. Coupled with the experience.
Some have the training and qualifications, but not the experience.
Experience is pretty much useless without a bedrock of training/qualifications.
The two go hand in hand.

A good point too about market pressure.

Would probably just be a pain, but I think it would be good to have some form of CPD implemented. They have started asking on annual inspections now, but other professions (like Lawyers) have to prove they are keeping up with current good practice in their sector. (Could be separate for Domestic, Commercial, Industrial, Rental inspections, etc)

Then the argument would still be about who is authoritative to provide that of course - no use if NAPIT run a paid course on EICR coding which contradicts what the NICEIC one says....

 

[old man sparky]

Hot potato waiting to find somewhere to land.

 

[UNG]

Would probably just be a pain, but I think it would be good to have some form of CPD implemented. They have started asking on annual inspections now, but other professions (like Lawyers) have to prove they are keeping up with current good practice in their sector. (Could be separate for Domestic, Commercial, Industrial, Rental inspections, etc)

It seems the current model is divide everything into separate little fields and create a course, qualification and a CPS for it, why does it need to be divided up into separate sections if you are qualified and experienced as an electrician then you are an electrician if you chose to follow some defined limited scope training then you are not an electrician. We don't have a BS7671 part XX for each individual area of electrical work so why define separate areas of work

Then the argument would still be about who is authoritative to provide that of course - no use if NAPIT run a paid course on EICR coding which contradicts what the NICEIC one says....

I would say neither of them are while they are playing to the balance sheet to the detriment of the skills within the trade and the public wanting to employ a "skilled electrician", the waiting game now is who will reign supreme and take over the other IMO

The NICEIC, NAPIT and the other CPS's have had their day and are failing the industry we really need something similar to the Gassafe model where the HSE oversees the register of of individual skilled persons not like the current NICEIC / NAPIT system where companies are assessed as competent. The closest we possibly have at the moment for individuals is the JIB grading system and ECS card

 

[old man sparky]

Mind you with the ecs cards health and safety 3 yearly exam your really going to sort the wood from the trees. Only the best of the best would pass that one. One of the most exhaustive in the trade.
Am I taking the pee ? You better believe it ??
Any way I have the gold card AND the platinum so there. Actually platinum is the old one its black now. How amazing am I ???

 

[David Anthony]

Mind you with the ecs cards health and safety 3 yearly exam your really going to sort the wood from the trees. Only the best of the best would pass that one. One of the most exhaustive in the trade.
Am I taking the pee ? You better believe it ??

I had one guy present an IET membership card. He had no training, Certification or experience. I wasn't very polite.

 

[old man sparky]

I had one guy present an IET membership card. He had no training, Certification or experience. I wasn't very polite.

To be fair, getting the Approved Electrician Gold needs to satisfy a reasonable set of criteria. The black Electrical Site Manager is deemed NVQ level 6 whatever that means these days. I managed to get the latter because they were so impressed with my Dewalt Zimmer frame ?

 

[Lister1987]

We don't have a BS7671 part XX for each individual area of electrical work so why define separate areas of work

Closest we have is Part 7 but I wouldnt be against either addition to this or a new part for the electrical sides of things like 5839, 7375 etc systems - pulled from the related standards.