Campaign for an electrician's licence scheme...Please Read...

[rocker]

MPs may be elected representatives and you are absolutely right, nothing would happen without their say-so, but that doesn't stop them being either crooked or obsessed with their various 'departments'. That is why nothing like this will EVER work properly. And we havent even gone into the civil-service side of things.

LEC these people don't care what's legal or not. They are not going to stop acting the way they do because it becomes illegal. Realistically they could be prosecuted now for the terrible works they do, so what's the difference?

You can call it 'not for profit' until the cows come home, but the people who work for it will have to be paid, and the departments will have to be run, and the MPs will have to have their bit, and it will have to be taxed, and so on and so forth. It will end up costing a lot, and as I said before theres no way the current schemes will be dissolved, so it will be on top of what we're paying now.

Australia and NZ do not allow unskilled migrants in to the country. There is not an influx of people coming into the country with either no skills or the limited skills learned according to the low-standards of their respective countries. Sure you have to have a licence which you will get if you're a good and honest spark, but surely that's the case in this country with Part P etc. All the trained competent sparks ARE registered, once again we are coming back to the issue of people working 'under the radar', who couldn't give two hoots if a licence is produced because they aren't regsitered now and they won't be registered in the future. When it comes down to it, most customers will happily turn a blind eye to the licence issue if the price is low.

I'm only talking about domestic, and I was under the impression you were too, as you've said to someone else that they could have a licence if they wanted to for commercial, but wouldn't really need one. I've probably misread there though. I am not an industrial spark, but I'm fairly sure you don't get too many cowboys in that game anyway.

As I've said a few times what you're doing I'm sure is great in your eyes, and the eyes of many others. I just feel that you're labouring under the misaprehension that the world and specifically this country runs according to your ideals - unfortunately it doesnt. With the current 'bureaucracy' government of crooks we have (and may 6th isn't going to change a damn thing, regardless of who gets in) this sort of thing would never work the way you want it to. It will be turned into yet another cash cow, that I can guarantee, and the only benefit will be to the govenment and to those running it.

And, as I've said, 'Part P' is already here, and it hasn't even got started yet. From a domestic point of view at least, it's whole point is to regulate and 'licence' the industry. Your scheme would put billions down the tubes before any results were ever seen.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Been following this thread with interest being not entirely sure where I stand.....and I have to say I lean towards Rockers view above....the cowboys will find a way round it and the rest of us will pay through the nose for it.

 

[aptsys]

Interestingly, Australia has one of the highest percentages of electrical related injuries in the world.

 

[elektrisien]

I the think' time served' and apprenticeships is something from the previous century. An electrician is first and foremost an electrical engineer. To be an engineer you need to go to college and study science, maths etc. I dont want to be called a Spark. That sound stupid and reminds me of fat block in dirty overalls. It should be professional. It does not take 4 years to learn how to bend conduit. Another thing, installation methods, tegnology etc are changing so quickly that somebody who did an apprenticeship 40years ago, I mean, it means nothing to me. I used to think an electrician is somebody like a tradesman, but they are not, they are much more. Eduacation should be much more important and experience less so. If you completed your studies as a doctor, you are a doctor. You dont have to have 4 years hospital experience and do an apprenticeship. Going to college is hard and diffecult. Not everybody can do it. But times are changing. Quite a few older electricians feel threatened by the new breed of electrician that focus more on academic eduacation rather than practical experience. But the electrical industry is changing, what was good 40 years ago, does not cut it anymore.

 

[elektrisien]

The electrical industry is moving towards full harmonizing with the rest of the EU. Freedom of movement and labour is one of the principles of the EU. If you create such a body as proposed, how will electricians from other EU countries fit into it ? You cannot deny them to work. How will they comply with entry requirements ? Or will this register be for all of Europa ?

 

[Phil]

I have to agree and disagree with the college experience issue.
yes there is a great deal to be learned at college But this does not make up for the day to day experience. I have worked with a vast range of people and all the theory in the world is no good when they get into doing the job hands on. on the same note though an electrician with just experience and no underpinning knowledge leaves a lot to be desired. like i said i have worked with the good and the bad , a little knowledge is dangerous and the real world of lifting boards is just not taught in college. college experience and the nvq is a good mixture.

 

[b4champ]

Hey, could i work on transformers if i go to community college for 1 year to get a certificate. Or do i have to go two years and get a diploma?

 

[rocker]

What, now or on this proposed scheme?

 

[Lec]

The electrical industry is moving towards full harmonizing with the rest of the EU. Freedom of movement and labour is one of the principles of the EU. If you create such a body as proposed, how will electricians from other EU countries fit into it ? You cannot deny them to work. How will they comply with entry requirements ? Or will this register be for all of Europa ?

That's a very good point.
I would possibly envisage a conversion system, so that EU qualifications etc equal a UK licence at which ever level.
Personaly, I am not a EU supporter. Having had experience working and trading across borders.
This is why all of the feed back is so important, it raises issues that will have to be addressed at some stage.

 

[Lec]

I the think' time served' and apprenticeships is something from the previous century. An electrician is first and foremost an electrical engineer. To be an engineer you need to go to college and study science, maths etc. I dont want to be called a Spark. That sound stupid and reminds me of fat block in dirty overalls. It should be professional. It does not take 4 years to learn how to bend conduit. Another thing, installation methods, tegnology etc are changing so quickly that somebody who did an apprenticeship 40years ago, I mean, it means nothing to me. I used to think an electrician is somebody like a tradesman, but they are not, they are much more. Eduacation should be much more important and experience less so. If you completed your studies as a doctor, you are a doctor. You dont have to have 4 years hospital experience and do an apprenticeship. Going to college is hard and diffecult. Not everybody can do it. But times are changing. Quite a few older electricians feel threatened by the new breed of electrician that focus more on academic eduacation rather than practical experience. But the electrical industry is changing, what was good 40 years ago, does not cut it anymore.

I absolutely agree with the majority of what you say, but you disregard the value of experience at your peril. The lack of it may very well kill you or someone else.
Don't dis the older guys, they could save your --- one day! We are all electricans.
Qualifications + Experience = Competent Electrician.
It’s no good knowing the theory if you can not apply it safely.
We cover a very wide range of work, mostly commercial / Industrial, but we still do some Domestic. We also get involved in lots of stuff many people would run from. We embrace new tech and we want to learn. However, day after day after day, we appreciate that without experience you will end up in the brown and smelly.
Don’t get me wrong, we do make mistakes from time to time, but it’s experience that helps us avoid them.
On a daily basis, my guys have to make on the job decisions. The ones with the most experience often make the best decisions and that is often because they are confident in their own abilities.
I appeal to everyone. Do not over estimate your ability, just because you have a certificate. You could make a mistake that could be very costly.
My son is going to Uni this year to become a Architect, knowing it will take up to 7 years to become fully qualified. During the 7 years he will cover theory, but will also need to gain experience. He has already spent 3 years doing A's, and a foundation degree. So in effect it will be 10 years of education and experience, before he calls himself an Architect.

 

[elektrisien]

I absolutely agree with the majority of what you say, but you disregard the value of experience at your peril. The lack of it may very well kill you or someone else.
Don't dis the older guys, they could save your --- one day! We are all electricans.
Qualifications + Experience = Competent Electrician.
It’s no good knowing the theory if you can not apply it safely.
We cover a very wide range of work, mostly commercial / Industrial, but we still do some Domestic. We also get involved in lots of stuff many people would run from. We embrace new tech and we want to learn. However, day after day after day, we appreciate that without experience you will end up in the brown and smelly.
Don’t get me wrong, we do make mistakes from time to time, but it’s experience that helps us avoid them.
On a daily basis, my guys have to make on the job decisions. The ones with the most experience often make the best decisions and that is often because they are confident in their own abilities.
I appeal to everyone. Do not over estimate your ability, just because you have a certificate. You could make a mistake that could be very costly.
My son is going to Uni this year to become a Architect, knowing it will take up to 7 years to become fully qualified. During the 7 years he will cover theory, but will also need to gain experience. He has already spent 3 years doing A's, and a foundation degree. So in effect it will be 10 years of education and experience, before he calls himself an Architect.

I agree with you, no job can be done without experience. But it seems some people think that if you did not do an apprenticeship, you will never make it. The hammer on experience like its everything. Just as dangerous as the guy with only a certificate, is the guy with all the experience. I have seen experienced electricians say, lets just use that size cable, its what we always used, without taking other factors into consideration. But like you say, experience gives you confidence, and speed. Maybe I just have a chip on my shoulder about this issue.

 

[elektrisien]

That's a very good point.
I would possibly envisage a conversion system, so that EU qualifications etc equal a UK licence at which ever level.
Personaly, I am not a EU supporter. Having had experience working and trading across borders.
This is why all of the feed back is so important, it raises issues that will have to be addressed at some stage.

What about the guys that did the self study courses ? Wont they be penalised ? I think many electricians did not follow the traditional route via an apprenticeship.

 

[RexT]

Hi all,

It seems that we all suffer from the usual thing in that we are up against people who under cut us and do a poor job or others who operate who operate outside the agreed levels of safety / regulations. I agree that we do need somnething effective but surely isnt it as said that there doesnt seem to be active policing? Schemes are great but how many do you have to be a part of?
We are all trying to make a living and its hard enough at the moment. I would happily support anything that was reasonable and would work.
Interesting posts guys.
Best wishes

Rex

 

[darking]

Hi Lec I quite agree but I have found , when asked about my accreditation by customers, that showing them my JIB card, bearing my picture, NI number and detailing my qualifications has given my customers more confidence than a logo painted on a van. I have heard a lot of "cowboy" stories about NICEIC members.

My card costs me a few pounds every 3 years. What does NICEIC charge for membership, their interpretation of the Regs, site assessments etc? and on the subject of the Mickey Mouse Level 2 domestic installer certificate, NICEIC along with some other accreditation companies actually endorses these plonkers. You only get a gold JIb card with "Accredited Electrician" on it when you provide proof of Training , Experience and Qualifications.

They may not police the industry any more than Corgi does for plumbers but at least they set the standard for competence, Training , Experience and Qualifications.

 

[kung]

The way i see it is the only policing out there is us and that is on our own work no card,cert,qual etc guarantee every install we do is safe and good quality the only thing that changes things is if we can sleep at night knowing the possibility that some poor sod might die or be injured or have their property destroyed etc if our work is crap. The fact that a domestic installer and quallified spark has done what they have to get to that grading gives them less chance of being a dodgy trader from hell ! that said theres good and bad in all ! i have seen some real crap from a domestic installer and some from a fully quallified time served spark as in truth we all have ! having said that ive worked with some very good domestic installers as well as sparks ! consider this possibility alzheimer's ! if your working and get this even in a mild form how will you know ? who will know ? how safe is your work ? how much work will you do that could be unsafe before its found out if at all ? will you be prossicuted in court if its proven you suffer from this even if someone dies ? how many jobs from one assessment do you do till another ? now consider this bipoler ! etc etc only we can tell or can we ? onece you have your quals thats it ! your qualified ! think about all what youve done that youve done thousands of times before year in year out will the phone go later giving you bad news ? or will you fail your next assessment while trying to do a Ze with a coat hanger ? I do support this licence scheme but although it will help will like all the others protect the public from this possibility ? Im now off the mow the carpet and hover the lawn so be on this phone later !