Campaign for an electrician's licence scheme...Please Read...

[blackiel]

12 week course...4 grand..as long as youve got basic english...well done new citizen..youre a SPARKS...sides hanging out yer back pocket whilst on yer way down the Cafe...You should have to work as a mate,with comprehensive proof,after completing these courses,for at least two years,without a doubt,dont care how clever you are,over 25 years since i qualified and im still learning everyday,its too complex a job to just brush off,like plastering,painting etc,its always updating,new discoveries,i know sparks,good ones,older than me that still get bewildered by things that have happened,a book can only help youre learning,life and experience can only teach you how to write the book!!!

 

[cantabrian9]

SPOT ON (if yer were a joiner YOU HIT THE NAIL RIGHT ON THE HEAD) I am so pleased i am almost out of the GAME it used to be a interesting profession always something new cropping up

 

[Voltimax]

I think some of you here need to look deeper into the scheme providers and their practices. I was a Napit NTA council member and you would be shocked at what goes on. The sooner the current scheme providers are out of the picture the better. Work it out. Napit alone have 6500 members who each pay about £400 a year, thats 2.6 million pounds a year! Imagine what the NICEIC are raking in. None of them care if they have sub standard members, just so long as the public don't find out. I have seen a letter from trading standards to the NICEIC demanding them to kick out a member because his work was so poor. They took no notice, thats the power they have.

 

[DarrenB]

I completely agree with the introduction of an electricians licence.The problem that we now have,though,is that government has created the revenue raising part-p scheme.Quite rightly,there are an awful many people out there who have paid their monies,done short courses etc,and are now legally trading in the domestic electrical enviroment.To turn around now and tell them they no longer can trade would cause real anger amongst these peoples.It's a ridiculous situation created by government.
I'm a big believer in qualifications/exams.Yes,we all know of someone who was good on theory but less able in the manual stuff.But thats what a full electricians course finds out.You have to do full on theory,with challenging written exams at the end to challenge your know how of the latest edition of BS7671.Then theres the AM2,which checks your ability to do the manual side of the electricians job.
Someone who passes both these disciplines can rightly call themselves an electrician.Failure to pass either one of these disciplines and,im sorry to say,you shouldn't have the right to call yourself an electrician.
There is a system in place,and has been for many years......its called city & guilds qualifications.There are records available,i'm sure,that could tell anyone who wants to know who is qualified,and for what they are qualified.That should be the base point for a person wishing to call themselves an electrician.
For anyone to say that gaining a full city & guilds electrical qualification means little is,frankly,naive.

Darren

 

[RexT]

Hi Guys,

I was told that the NICEIC have changed their name recently, does anyone know if this is the case and why it is?

Thanks,

Rex

 

[andyb]

Hi Guys,

I was told that the NICEIC have changed their name recently, does anyone know if this is the case and why it is?

Thanks,

Rex

They changed the group name to Ascertiva (I don't know why)

But the Niceic is still the same with the same name.

 

[RexT]

Hi Andy,

Thanks, didnt realise it was the group thing. Just wondered as when the name changes normally there are other changes, like the ownership or conditions etc.

Best wishes

Rex

 

[andyemms]

I agree something needs to be done. When I started to re-train as an electrician 3 years ago I had no knowledge of the industry and find it rather annoying and disturbing that people out there are doing what I do, without doing the training I have done! There needs to be a strict licencing scheme and a card issued, we also need some sort of legislation preventing the sale of electrical components to unlicenced persons. You can't change a consumer unit if you cant buy one!

 

[m25maintenance]

yea stop selling electrical goods to the public and ill sell on the black market,lol

 

[cantabrian9]

yeh ,im back!! i still think some form of licencing scheme could work BUT AT NO COST TO US LOT!!but even if such a system got going there would still be the back-door boys around i cant see the goverment or the other so called bodies (jib,niceic (is that one correct?) and others?) really bothering if a person has,nt the right ticket (like i have wrote in the past with my jib ticket (put it away it may embarrass some-one)just one more small point, i have just finished a job (shopfitting)the man in charge blew 2 sparks??? out, 8 days before the job ended cos they were a liability!!me and the other spark had to sort the s---e they had left, but like CONFUCIUS quoted (MANY HANDS MAKE LIGHT? WORK) ALSO got pulled up cos i didn,t have a ecs ticket!!

 

[High Tower]

I am in favour in principle I think this should be a elitist trade because of the skill and knowledge required to be competent I think that we should be in the same place as gas fitters with their register. The only thing I object to is the notion of a licence only available to "time served" sparks. I made the wrong choices at 16 and devoted my adolescent years to being a chef, and make no mistakes I have been employed in some of the finest Michelin star restaurants but it is not what I
Want to do and I have always wished I had been a spark so I work 60hrs a week at work and then spend one of my rest days at college re- training and the other day trying to do some work to build my competence. So I would hope that I would be eligible.

 

[Phil]

I am in favour in principle I think this should be a elitist trade because of the skill and knowledge required to be competent I think that we should be in the same place as gas fitters with their register. The only thing I object to is the notion of a licence only available to "time served" sparks. I made the wrong choices at 16 and devoted my adolescent years to being a chef, and make no mistakes I have been employed in some of the finest Michelin star restaurants but it is not what I
Want to do and I have always wished I had been a spark so I work 60hrs a week at work and then spend one of my rest days at college re- training and the other day trying to do some work to build my competence. So I would hope that I would be eligible.

not alone there, I too made rubbish career choices at 16 and like you a worked some un savoury hours two nights at college and the rest of my spare time with my head in a book and grabbing every bit of experience i could because no one seemed to want a post 19 electrician on their books. i wish i had have done it at 16 but hind sight is a great thing. but so is working hard to obtain your goal good on you for sticking with it as it for me was not an easy ride but well worth every minute and the pride i felt when i could say i was an electrician as sad as it sounds made me grin

 

[Graeme Harrold]

Got to remember you can also do a 4 week domestic gas installers course as I basically retrained from the electro-mech field to domestic electrician in 4 weeks too. But I feel I wave a wealth of experiance behind me, but do not hold many of the quals banded about on this thread.

Quals mean nothing if you cant put them into practice, and not just under exam conditions on pretty rigs. I have come across many shocking (pardon the pun) installs be so called "time served" sparks under the banner of Part P schemes. At the end of the day, I take pride in my work, understand the regs and work to them no matter what. Word of mouth gets me 90% of my work on recomendation and have no probs with any of my installs being inspected at random intervals throughout the year (prob a good idea)

I watch with interest...............

 

[Phil]

too true graham i know a few people who have no knowledge of electrics but could pass probably even the 91 if they were given a book for a couple of months. that really does not make them competent and thats the key word for an electrician for my opinion you need not only the tech side but also the practical experience that only on the job gives. I have seen good and bad and both with and without quals etc

 

[ricardo123]

Just found this thread really good.

Haven't read all the threads but here are my thoughts.

Most dangerous works I have seen are from kitchen fitters, plumbers and diy'ers. Most sparks works are generally acceptable. I don't think other trades should be allowed to do a sparkies work and I think only electricians should be allowed to buy electrical materials from a wholesalers, etc.

I have just had a look at the Licencing web site but isn't this what the JIB should be for. I mean how many things do we need, the IEE, HSE, TRUSTMARK, ELECSA, ECA, NICEIC, NAPIT, PARTP, JIB, LABC, c'mon Mr Cameron, this one's ripe for some streamlining.

 

[maddfridge]

hi everyone

the whole lot should be under the JIB simple no one else no niceic eca etc simple jib should be like gas safe!

the trade bodies then could represent the electricians

Part P should be scrapped period and all the two week electricians should be tested under the elctrotechnical assessment scheme

Diy stores should be stopped from selling sockets etc for diy use

ah a song comes to mind if i ruled the world everyday would be last day of pat testing lol

 

[m25maintenance]

wat a load of kak. it will never happen, this is england. nobody checking until sum poor sole dies.iv called 20 people in the london area advertising as sparks and i said i need a spark but will need 2 c papers b4 job starts, only 2 of them called back, typical advert reads. plumber electrician handyman in other words unqualified idiot

 

[LukeD]

In my opinion you can have new schemes, licenses, cards etc every year if you so wish. None of them will ever mean a single thing until they are POLICED, and reports of dodgy/un-licensed work are followed up and PUNISHED.

Bang on ! THis is the only way.

 

[Big n Daft]

Just found this thread really good.

Haven't read all the threads but here are my thoughts.

Most dangerous works I have seen are from kitchen fitters, plumbers and diy'ers. Most sparks works are generally acceptable. I don't think other trades should be allowed to do a sparkies work and I think only electricians should be allowed to buy electrical materials from a wholesalers, etc.

I have just had a look at the Licencing web site but isn't this what the JIB should be for. I mean how many things do we need, the IEE, HSE, TRUSTMARK, ELECSA, ECA, NICEIC, NAPIT, PARTP, JIB, LABC, c'mon Mr Cameron, this one's ripe for some streamlining.

On the money.
The problem is the dinosaur spark. You all know one, lots of knowledge with a C+G pt 1+2 and is still 15th edition. His cv shows that he has worked all over and on everything. He looks at his trade, see's the 4 week spark and doesnt like it.
These men have so much to pass on but are treated like lepers. A single body, with a sympathetic view and willingness to recognise the acheivements, should help them get up to date via assessments and grants for 17th courses. Not try to extract as much cash as possible and alienate them.
Most of the time an experienced spark works to the regs without even knowing, its in the blood.
It is what the JIB is for, but its got no teeth and is part of the rip the trades off cartel. I have got a 5yr JIB apprenticship and was not considered for a job because I was told an NVQ was the qualification. In the real world a JIB card is useless outside a JIB firm.

 

[Bob D Nero]

Believe it or I live Spain and they have a licensing system here.
It's a three tier system, Professional theory qualification, Practical qualifiaction and a certificate of authorisation.
All three are linked to you ID number which is also your tax number, you cant get a cert of authorisation without being actively self-employed and paying social security and making tax and vat declarations and also having a valid public liability. The whole lot is then registered and monitored through the local ministry of industry. Stops a lot of cowboys now. Ant the regs here are just as tight as the 17th.

 

[cantabrian9]

WELL, i dunno which bit of spain you are in,but here in the backwoods of Almeria province you dont need no savvy to be a spark and there is not much in the way of regs!! polarity is a dirty word,testing is even dirtier!!!! i could go on but i am getting away from the original thread,---as Big n Daft mentioned (well done!!) i am one of those dinosaurs,but i will not pay out anymore money for another ticket (either 17th OR safety!!) for some UNQUALIFIED moron in a office making money from US, these office wallahs and the like couldn´t even boil a kettle if it weren´t for us

 

[mayfair]

Regs for Spain here in Alicante are quite stringent, tests are done as in 17th, ITC BT 25 is the domestic side and BT28 more for public buildings with various numbers in between All tox free cable in Public buildings and yes they do check !!! All CU are identified plus warning stickers plus much much more.

WELL, i dunno which bit of spain you are in,but here in the backwoods of Almeria province you dont need no savvy to be a spark and there is not much in the way of regs!! polarity is a dirty word,testing is even dirtier!!!! i could go on but i am getting away from the original thread,---as Big n Daft mentioned (well done!!) i am one of those dinosaurs,but i will not pay out anymore money for another ticket (either 17th OR safety!!) for some UNQUALIFIED moron in a office making money from US, these office wallahs and the like couldn´t even boil a kettle if it weren´t for us

 

[Bob D Nero]

WELL, i dunno which bit of spain you are in,but here in the backwoods of Almeria province you dont need no savvy to be a spark and there is not much in the way of regs!! polarity is a dirty word,testing is even dirtier!!!! i could go on but i am getting away from the original thread,---as Big n Daft mentioned (well done!!) i am one of those dinosaurs,but i will not pay out anymore money for another ticket (either 17th OR safety!!) for some UNQUALIFIED moron in a office making money from US, these office wallahs and the like couldn´t even boil a kettle if it weren´t for us

In Menorca which is incredibly backwards in alot of respects however with electrics, gas, plumbling and aircon theyve tightened right up in the last couple of years.

And to go back on topic if I have to pay to be liscened in th UK so be it. I''ve got no problem with a liscencing system.

 

[trev]

Would it not be better to start a petition on the Prime Minister's website. 100,000 signatures and they have to debate it in parliament. I'll volunteer to start it if no one has already

 

[Zeno]

Thanks Tvev1 for pointing me to this thread.

A licensing Scheme would be a good idea, one brand/name like Gas Safe, and several Schemes, I would not trust any of the Schemes to run a single scheme dictatorship, the costs would go through the roof.


The Propaganda from the Schemes and DCLG (Government) is, that a Licensing Scheme does not work in Australia and NZ and that it is a restrictive practise, because the public cannot do anything. I think that the public should be able to do a restricted set of work as they do now.


The Schemes don't want it because they like the QS system, and the thought of a Individual Licensing System to enable Competence on the Doorstep for the public, is a Major threat to their membership numbers and profits.

We will never get anywhere until Our Trade is speaking to Politicians that make the decisions, because one thing for sure is that Parliamentary Under Secretary of State Andrew Stunell MP, Minister for Part P, will not have been told what his own department and the Schemes are up to.


At the moment the Schemes speak on behalf of Our Trade to DCLG, do you really think that they state the full facts.


Has everyone seen what their Schemes have stated to DCLG for the new Part P Mk2 ? Yeah Right.


Its not about Competence, its about Money.

 

[darking]

cynical but sadly, true

 

[matt v]

I have dipped in and out of these posts so excuse me if I am repeating anyone. These schemes would be great, but until sales of electrical installation materials are restricted you will never be able to change anything, its one thing for a consumer to choose some lights but when they can buy consumer units, armoured cable etc how will you stop unlicensed installs in private dwellings?
Touching on another topic, I spent 15 years in landscape design and build (self employed) and decided to change tac and specialise in garden lighting. Did the course got the quals, (2330, 17th, part p)paid the money. The things I have seen from time served sparks in this context has suprised me, a lack of understanding of install and product mainly. Having specced lighting schemes with a qualified spark I decided to do it myself, and having done some house bashing with him have found my building skills and business skills have seen me in good stead. There is a placce for re education, and always a place for continued education.
I would still want to be part of the scheme tho!

 

[grantr37]

If there was to be a license system for electricians all that would happen is that many many thousands of electricians would be denied membership, or have it removed because a pen-pusher without any knowledge or understanding felt like it,and any electrician that is unfortunate enough to be put on the "unsavory individuals list" aka "do not employ list" which we can assume still exist and operate for most trades would get a red letter in the post and be banned and banished.......a lot of things are tied together in different ways.....just like when you annoy a friend or relative of a certain type of official person clad in black and yellow clothing...and your transport gets added to "of interest" then you start getting pulled over all over the country....work licenses removed= less competition=more money to be made by less people= big business gets involved through hook or crook in the process of administering and issuing of licenses

 

[TPES]

Would it not be better to start a petition on the Prime Minister's website. 100,000 signatures and they have to debate it in parliament. I'll volunteer to start it if no one has already

Good idea, I've signed a few of these petitions in the hope of making a difference to this sad state of a country

 

[TPES]

Is this the one?

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/5485

 

[grantr37]

would anybody here like to be denied work because they didn't have a license? it would be like having your driving license taken away.....imagine having your work license taken away for no good and fair reason....whats that? I have to go for an £800 medical for the insurance company before they will cover me...because they can make me do that.... and I need to keep it continuous by law.....whats that? my bad back makes my insurance more expensive.....what five thousand.....for one year......oh no they will take away my sparks license if my insurance runs out....

just think about all the good bar people who had to stop working in bars and pubs due to the individual licenses that came in.....a lot of money to do the course.....very expensive and few pubs willing to pay...so have to part with cash themselves.....got a speeding fine....maybe a nuisance noise visit when you were an 18 year old student playing loud music....or what was that? the person at the council doesn't like your sister....so they motion to deny approval....oh well too bad there's lots of other people out there so they are quite happy to ignore your appeal...and in any case they feel like they are too busy to bother...

 

[trev]

Grant can we assume from your post that you're happy with the status quo?
Where good sparks are missing out on work because they are not signed up to a scam provider despite having a list of qualifications as long as your arm.
Where guys who can go out and work on massive voltages are unable to work in their own homes legally for the same reason, Where the cowboys are propspering because they don't adhere to the rules and the system allows them to get away with it. And the only ones profitting out of the whole sorry mess are the scam providers since they make their fees whether they let you join their gang or not

 

[Specialist]

Seriously doubt that a licence for Electricians will stop the Cowboys or Joe blogs down the road from doing Electrical work. No matter what license you have there will still be Cowboys doing work, they have Licensed Electricians in America & it sure has'nt stopped the butchers doing Electrics. Not only that but how is this Licence going to work to stop the Qualified Cowboy ? Don't know about you but i've seen many bad / dangerous jobs carried out by fully qualified Electricians, how is any Licence going to stop them ?.

 

[darking]

So if there was a single body, nationally recognised, that made a thorough check on any applicants qualifications and competence, charged a low fee for the registration and re-registration of electricians, say every three years, who issued a card used as photo id as proof of accreditation surely would be cheap to run and administer fairly?

But wait, we have all that in place already, a JIB card! All we need to petition for is for that to become statutory, and the job is done and we have the electricity at work act that can enforce it

 

[TPES]

would anybody here like to be denied work because they didn't have a license?...

I'm all for it..

If I wanted to be an electrician then I would do all it took to get the licence if this was the career I so badly wanted.

If I was already an electrician then I would take what ever courses I needed to take to be issued with a licence..

If they bring this licence out and your an electrician that would be worried about loosing work because you didn't have a licence then do what is required to gain your licence, simple. if your good at what you do have the knowledge and high standards of work then you will have no worries.

Who is worried about this and why?

 

[Specialist]

So if there was a single body, nationally recognised, that made a thorough check on any applicants qualifications and competence, charged a low fee for the registration and re-registration of electricians, say every three years, who issued a card used as photo id as proof of accreditation surely would be cheap to run and administer fairly?

But wait, we have all that in place already, a JIB card! All we need to petition for is for that to become statutory, and the job is done and we have the electricity at work act that can enforce it

OK but does the JIB card & their checks on peoples qualifications / competence stop them going out & doing shoddy / dangerous work after they've got it ?: NO the same as Part P has'nt stopped the Cowboys in the domestic side, if anything there are more of them. NIC check peoples work etc but does that stop a lot of NIC registered contractors doing shoddy work ? NO of course it does'nt, so why do people think that a Licence is going to do any better.

 

[Arnold Layne]

Darking, I assume by JIB card that what you are actually referring to is the ECS ( Electrotechnical Scheme card) card which is affiliated to the CSCS. This is a scheme which was introduced to ensure Health and Safely, which is absolutely necessary. However whilst they can check paperwork qualifications, which is good, I don't see how it checks competence. It is not an independent scheme, as others have called for. It is administered by the ECA

 

[alarm man]

a licence wouldnt work,why issue one and no doubt have to pay for it when the entry into it is a quick course to get it,will make things worse imo,like darking says we have a sort of one anyway in the jib,ive said it before those who have been in the trade for years and have no jib card or the latest quals should be given a test to prove their competence and issued with a jib electrcian card and paid that rate as that will be the standard,the industry does need to be tightened its the quick course diet spark thats the biggest threat,the companies also need to get the apprenticeship scheme back on course,real training over real time regardless of age,

 

[darking]

As I Said the EAWR cover competency

Reg 16. Persons to be competent to prevent danger and injury

No person shall be engaged in any work activity where technical knowledge or experience is necessary to prevent danger or, where appropriate, injury, unless he possesses such knowledge or experience, or is under such degree of supervision as may be appropriate having regard to the nature of the work

We have legislation we need to petition to have it enforced with prosecution for any infringement

 

[imago]

I'm all for it..

If I wanted to be an electrician then I would do all it took to get the licence if this was the career I so badly wanted.

If I was already an electrician then I would take what ever courses I needed to take to be issued with a licence..

If they bring this licence out and your an electrician that would be worried about loosing work because you didn't have a licence then do what is required to gain your licence, simple. if your good at what you do have the knowledge and high standards of work then you will have no worries.

Which is what we have now, so there's no need for a campaign or a license.

Darking has it spot on IMHO. The system is already in place, as is the legislation, standards and inspectors. The part that's sadly lacking is any meaningfull enforcement.

Campaigning for yet another level and type of beaurocracy is madness.