Campaign for an electrician's licence scheme...Please Read...

[Lec]

I don't object to your license, neither do I support something that seems as if it's still wishful thinking.

All I and many others probably want to know, is your next steps and time scales.

You said the scheme providers will still have a roll to play, get them involved, speed things up and get it in place.

I am sure if you show clear actions and time scales you would get more backing?

Mark, currently we need to get as many supporters as possible, so that we can show there is grass roots support from the industry, therefore time scales will somewhat depend on speed of support and my biggest issue at present is spreading the news, letting every electrician in the UK know that the campaign exists. I have not received or requested any financial assistance at all, so it's all coming out of my pocket, so don't expect to see any expensive marketing yet.

The scheme providers are not willing to support the campaign, they want me to stop. Currently the NICEIC and ECA are fighting each other over their share of the market, they both want their own scheme to be "the only scheme" and will never support a "not for profit" organisation that threatens their profits and growth plans. Do not think for one minute that they have the trade’s interest at heart. They have been given the opportunity before to work together for a licensing scheme and they refused, insisting theirs was the best and they should be the only one.

The concept of the existing bodies working together and then getting government approval is more of a pipe dream than you may think my campaign is.

The backing I receive will somewhat dictate the actions and time scales. I want this as soon as possible and if you are an electrician, you should to.

 

[Jason Smith]

obviously you have assumed I do not know how a not for profit organisation works. Sorry but you shouldnt assume as its dangerous. So you are trying to tell everbody on here then that a not for profit organisation does not pay any salaries ?

You state on your website that a certain persons services were dispensed with from the NICEIC. I do not wish to make comment. However, it has been known that persons who have a beef with their company, whatever and whoever,have often tried to set up in competition as revenge. Could this be you ?.Have you failed assesments from any of our current scheme providers?
Any organisation that does not pay salaries Lec is eventually doomed to failure, such an important thing as a regulation body cannot be left to chance can it ?
I have my suspicions lec, and I have merly asked for you to put your cards onthe table. I will put my cards on the table, I doubt your motives.
This is submitted to the forum with absolute respect to lec, and is no more than a politician having to declare interest etc.I feel these questions need to be asked.

 

[mogga]

I tend to agree with "not for profit" being unattainable but on the other hand how does GASSAFE work It is recognised in court for prossecutions im sure if u asked a judge sherrif or magistrate what the elctrical sheme equivelant to Gas Safe was they wouldnt be able to give a definative answer as there are way to many and adding another one to the mob isnt going to sort it out this requires sorting out at a government level and a self,government funded NICEIC type where training ,regulation and advice are available from one source across the board then the public /main contractors would also have one complaint route

 

[Lec]

obviously you have assumed I do not know how a not for profit organisation works. Sorry but you shouldnt assume as its dangerous. So you are trying to tell everbody on here then that a not for profit organisation does not pay any salaries ?

You state on your website that a certain persons services were dispensed with from the NICEIC. I do not wish to make comment. However, it has been known that persons who have a beef with their company, whatever and whoever,have often tried to set up in competition as revenge. Could this be you ?.Have you failed assesments from any of our current scheme providers?
Any organisation that does not pay salaries Lec is eventually doomed to failure, such an important thing as a regulation body cannot be left to chance can it ?
I have my suspicions lec, and I have merly asked for you to put your cards onthe table. I will put my cards on the table, I doubt your motives.
This is submitted to the forum with absolute respect to lec, and is no more than a politician having to declare interest etc.I feel these questions need to be asked.

Jason, you seem to have a desire to make this personal. How sad.
Read what I said, the salary for the person or persons running the scheme would be appropriate for the position and I do not expect that to be me.
If you knew how they work why ask such a question.

My web site is www.l-e-c.org.uk, it does not name the NICEIC anywhere and does not talk about a person that was dispensed with. Get your web sites sorted before making accusations.

I put my cards on the table, now it should be your turn.
Who are you, why are you trying to discrediting my campaign?
You’re wasting your time buddy, I have nothing to hide! I’m just an electrician trying to make life better for all electricians. if the majority want it, that’s great. If I fail, then at least I had the guts to try instead of just complaining.
If you want to make things personal, go find someone that might drop to your level.
I thought this forum was about debate and opinions, not personal attacks.
Perhaps I should ask you which approval body you have links with.
Please don't answer my questions, it's not important.

 

[Lec]

I tend to agree with "not for profit" being unattainable but on the other hand how does GASSAFE work It is recognised in court for prossecutions im sure if u asked a judge sherrif or magistrate what the elctrical sheme equivelant to Gas Safe was they wouldnt be able to give a definative answer as there are way to many and adding another one to the mob isnt going to sort it out this requires sorting out at a government level and a self,government funded NICEIC type where training ,regulation and advice are available from one source across the board then the public /main contractors would also have one complaint route

Mogga, The John Lewis Partnership, Western Provident Association are just two examples of very successfull Not For Profit companies. My suggestion for NFP is so that we would know what our license fee is being spent on and that it is being spent wisely. Giving maximum value for money and not putting profits in some ones pockets at our expense.
My campaign is not for just another "one to the mob" it is for having just one scheme, no more mob. It would possibly be under government control, but that may or may not be popular. It will need the powers to take real action, effective action when required.
I envisage the licensing scheme having purely a policing role.
Training, advice, new standards etc would still come from organisations like the ECA, NICEIC, ESC etc.
some of these guys do some of this stuff extereemly well, the problem is that there are to many "approvals bodies" and badges out there, which confuse the market. sadley none of them get any where near to policing the industry effectivly.
One licensing system, one badge, one set of rules, hopefully clarity.

 

[acat]

Not only do the judges not have a clue. The other night the local MP decided to disturb my dinner. So I listened and when he shut up I said what does part P mean to you. A blank stare then a mumble something to do with privatisation. This was despite walking past my sign written van with "part P qualfied" on it


I let rip 35 minutes later I educated MP and thats what we should all do complaining on here is pointless apart from stress relief. Get hold of your MPs and give them hell until they give up and do something. One of the questions I asked him was how many people had died or been injured for not having a TV Licence. He didnt answer so I asked how come I have to prove who I am am to buy a TV but I can walk into any of our favourite DIY stores and buy a CU with no questions asked again silence.



Chris

 

[Mark_Burgess]

Bang on Acat, May 6th when I go to vote and they are all there grinning, I shall ask them one by one, take their names and ask why nothing is being done to police it. Just put a reminder on my phone!!!!

 

[Jason Smith]

Jason, you seem to have a desire to make this personal. How sad.
Read what I said, the salary for the person or persons running the scheme would be appropriate for the position and I do not expect that to be me.
If you knew how they work why ask such a question.

My web site is www.l-e-c.org.uk, it does not name the NICEIC anywhere and does not talk about a person that was dispensed with. Get your web sites sorted before making accusations.

I put my cards on the table, now it should be your turn.
Who are you, why are you trying to discrediting my campaign?
You’re wasting your time buddy, I have nothing to hide! I’m just an electrician trying to make life better for all electricians. if the majority want it, that’s great. If I fail, then at least I had the guts to try instead of just complaining.
If you want to make things personal, go find someone that might drop to your level.
I thought this forum was about debate and opinions, not personal attacks.
Perhaps I should ask you which approval body you have links with.
Please don't answer my questions, it's not important.

I would suggest you review the links you give in support of your arguement. The above information came straight from the link YOU gave to support your campaign. You will find that anyone who supports this huge step will need these basic questions answering. You perhaps shouldnt of used that link. This is a democracy, and unfortuneately the only insults I can see have come from you. If I am to support you, then unfortuneately I wanna know who you are. YOU raised those questions by using the link.

 

[Tester Steve]

Been watching this thread for a while now, so time I said my bit! All my own personal thoughts!

Much has been mentioned about a system along the lines of Corgi/Gassafe. This is on the basis that everyone(?) knowns that to work on gas you need to be registered. But unregistered people are still working on gas, as a quick Google will show, here, here and here are some examples. It seems to me that they only got 'caught' because something went wrong and another person was called in and 'grassed' them up. There must be a lot of work out there done by unregistered fitters. How do Corgi/Gassafe police the work of gas fitters? How do they enforce it? How do they know that Mrs. Smith has had a new boiler fitted? They don't, it is only (sadly) when something goes wrong that they get found out.

It is the same with electrical work. How does the LABC know that Mr. Brown has had his house rewired or a new CU fitted? They will know IF the sparks was registered and notified via his scheme provider. If the sparks wasn't registered, then only he and Mr. Smith would know. So how do the LABC find out? Basically, like gas, unless something goes wrong, they don't.

So how do Corgi/Gassafe or the new electrical licence scheme going to find all this unregistered work? Employ a vast number of people to go around the country, knocking on every door asking if any gas/electrical work has been done? And ask to see the certificates if they say yes? What if they say no, are they going to go in and check? And who is going to pay for this vast army? The tax payer? The scheme provider(s)? How about those claiming job seekers allowance??

So, how would a licence scheme for electricians, run on the lines of Gassafe, help improve the safety of those who have had electrical work done? Who is going to police it? How will it be enforced? Lastly, who will pay for it? I know that the current scheme providers do not promote Part P as they should, but I believe that this is one area that is proposed to be improved.

All of the big sheds sell electrical stuff. CU's, wire, sockets etc. They also sell gas boilers, gas fittings, gas hoses etc. It is NOT illegal to sell any of this stuff. It is NOT illegal to buy, or to own, any of this stuff. It becomes illegal when (some of) it is installed, and that's when the fun starts!!

As has been said before, the only people who can actually change things are the insurance companies. If they insisted that, if you want buildings insurance, you will need valid gas and electrical certificates, then perhaps it might change things.

So, a licencing scheme for electricians? Perhaps. But, like Gassafe, how is it going to be policed and enforced? Who will pay?? Gassafe cost £175 per company per year (+vat) and £75 for each aditional engineer. How much is your scheme provider charging? Would one, single organisation, like Gassafe, reduce costs for the electrician? Would this lower cost encourage more people to register? There will always be cowboys, regardless of the law or licencing. When cost is a factor, most go for the cheapest option!

Just my thoughts!

Steve.

 

[acat]

Very valid points Steve but we cant do nothing as I said to that MP that came knocking on my door how come I have to prove who I am for a TV but not a consumer unit. Nobody stopped buying TVs when that came in so why dont we have a similar scheme for Consumer Units central unit informed who in turn notifies the local building control.

It wont be 100% but it will do what we all want and that is raise public awareness that along with your comments about insurance companies and I think we have cracked it.

A suggestion to one and all when we know who is going to be running this country for the next 5 years we all send one letter to our MP and perhaps insurance companies asking their views. Keep a copy of the letters and if anything is reported in the newspapers contact the newspaper and give them a copy of letter to MP stating thats how long he/she knew and did nothing.

In every instance Name and Shame is the Game.


Chris

 

[RexT]

Hi Acat,

I agree with you about the MPs. They are quick to come round asking for your vote, promising a great deal and after the election the selective memory bit kicks in and we have to wait etc. It would be good to keep a record and try to do something positive. The public are very quick to blame someone when there is a problem and it would be good to get people to realise the truth.

Good comments,

Best wishes

Rex

 

[Roggi]

Who would support the introduction of a Licence scheme for electricans, as used in Australia, Canada, New Zealand etc etc.

Well, you can.

I have heard so many electrcians say "what we need is a licensing scheme like in Australia, that would solve the problem..... But it will never happen"

Take a look at L-E-C.org.uk - The Licensed Electricians Campaign

If the vast majority of electricians supported this campaign, the government wiould have to listen and act.

Comments please.

I agree we do need some regulation against these one day courses and at the end of it your a sparks but how will this work and somewhere another governing body will be making money out of the poor sparks...There seems to be more money in training then the actual job these days

 

[stef]

I the think' time served' and apprenticeships is something from the previous century. An electrician is first and foremost an electrical engineer. To be an engineer you need to go to college and study science, maths etc. I dont want to be called a Spark. That sound stupid and reminds me of fat block in dirty overalls. It should be professional. It does not take 4 years to learn how to bend conduit. Another thing, installation methods, tegnology etc are changing so quickly that somebody who did an apprenticeship 40years ago, I mean, it means nothing to me. I used to think an electrician is somebody like a tradesman, but they are not, they are much more. Eduacation should be much more important and experience less so. If you completed your studies as a doctor, you are a doctor. You dont have to have 4 years hospital experience and do an apprenticeship. Going to college is hard and diffecult. Not everybody can do it. But times are changing. Quite a few older electricians feel threatened by the new breed of electrician that focus more on academic eduacation rather than practical experience. But the electrical industry is changing, what was good 40 years ago, does not cut it anymore.

Yeah, I felt the same until someone convinced me to join the IET as a professional. The assessment was quite time consuming and work intensive but now I am classified as a professional Engineering Technician. I had to prove my qualifications, knowledge and achievements (and that wasn't cheap)
but at least I have a professional status. Quite a bit worth in the industry.

 

[JAKES DAD]

Hi Yes good idea. What would the minimum quals be.would I qualify 55 years old, 35 years in the trade C&G Electricians certificate, 15th & 16th editions.

 

[Lec]

Hi Yes good idea. What would the minimum quals be.would I qualify 55 years old, 35 years in the trade C&G Electricians certificate, 15th & 16th editions.

Yes you would at the appropriate level.
There would be a number of levels, like the schemes run around the world at present.
Take a look at some of the links on my web site and you will see what I mean.
My question to you is why no 17th Ed?
If you carry out electrical work, how do you know if what you do meets the current regs, if you don't know what the 17th Ed contains and how if differs from the 16th.