Can someone please clarify EICR rating of these downlights in terms of fire rating

[JohnS888]

Hi All

Am continuously getting failed EICR'S sent over to quote on remedials for non fire rated downlights. These are lights in question. I see they have exposed conductors so would personally probably code 2 but what would code be for fire rating they are low voltage if that even makes a difference I don't think it does as my understanding of the fire rating it's the degree of protection of a fire from room below spreading into void above and potentially into other apartments.....any clarity appreciated.

 

[Taylortwocities]

First of all. And this is a key point
Fire rated down lights are only required if a fire barrier has been punctured to enable the downlighting. In the vast majority of cases the ceiling is not a fire barrier.
the places you may find a fire barrier are theceiling of an integrated garage or the ceilings between separate apartments where the construction includes a fire barrier.

you’ll spot a fire rated ceiling because it’s made of pink plasterboard or a double thickness plasterboard.

Can’t see for sure but your photo doesn’t show that ceiling as a fire barrier . There’s a general urban myth that fire rated down lights are necessary where there’s a bedroom above a kitchen- that’s tosh.
The only thing I can see wrong in your pic is cable sheath not entering the enclosure. C3.

 

[JohnS888]

First of all. And this is a key point
Fire rated down lights are only required if a fire barrier has been punctured to enable the downlighting. In the vast majority of cases the ceiling is not a fire barrier.
the places you may find a fire barrier are theceiling of an integrated garage or the ceilings between separate apartments where the construction includes a fire barrier.

you’ll spot a fire rated ceiling because it’s made of pink plasterboard or a double thickness plasterboard.

Can’t see for sure but your photo doesn’t show that ceiling as a fire barrier . There’s a general urban myth that fire rated down lights are necessary where there’s a bedroom above a kitchen- that’s tosh.
The only thing I can see wrong in your pic is cable sheath not entering the enclosure. C3.

Thanks Taylor on clarifying on whether the the lights are actually fitted into an actual fire rated ceiling. This actual property is a block of apartments that is a converted warehouse. There is no sign of the lights being extra close to wooden joists but hard to make out if above the actual lights apartments above are separated by wooden flooring. Would this influence your decision on whether the lights should be changed for fire rated ones? Thanks

 

[Taylortwocities]

The point of fire rated down lights is to limit the passage of a fire in a lower floor to the floor above. They are not to allow the download Light to be positioned closer to joists etc or flooring above.
It is the ceiling which is, or isn’t a fire barrier.

 

[Kellogs64]

I would check the void, if it looks like there is fire board there, in good condition. Its a pass. If not and there is a living space above C2 all day. I pass them if there in a loft or flat roof only.

 

[JohnS888]

I would check the void, if it looks like there is fire board there, in good condition. Its a pass. If not and there is a living space above C2 all day. I pass them if there in a loft or flat roof only.

Thanks Kellogs it's pretty much how I'm approaching things now

 

[Midwest]

We debated this many times. You have to ask the reason why plasterboard is used. One of the reasons, is to make walls & ceiling’s look nice.

If you decided on a rustic look for your living room and new extension, by exposing your joists and not installing a plasterboard ceiling and leaving the structural elements of the property exposed, I think you would face a hard time getting that passed a Building Control Inspector.

Likewise, if you make a hole in a plasterboard ceiling for services, Building Regs require you to reinstate to its previous condition. You cant leave something worse than it previously was.

Plasterboard also helps in compliance with other Building Regs, not just fire.

Theres a Best Practice Guide from ESF, on this subject, which I haven’t to hand at the mo. Whilst if I recall it doesn’t advise against these old type down lights, it does give some guidance on the matter. I’ll try and find it, when I have time.

 

[JohnS888]

We debated this many times. You have to ask the reason why plasterboard is used. One of the reasons, is to make walls & ceiling’s look nice.

If you decided on a rustic look for your living room and new extension, by exposing your joists and not installing a plasterboard ceiling and leaving the structural elements of the property exposed, I think you would face a hard time getting that passed a Building Control Inspector.

Likewise, if you make a hole in a plasterboard ceiling for services, Building Regs require you to reinstate to its previous condition. You cant leave something worse than it previously was.

Plasterboard also helps in compliance with other Building Regs, not just fire.

Theres a Best Practice Guide from ESF, on this subject, which I haven’t to hand at the mo. Whilst if I recall it doesn’t advise against these old type down lights, it does give some guidance on the matter. I’ll try and find it, when I have time.

Thanks Midwest that would be appreciated

 

[Midwest]

https://www.-----------------------.../safer-installations/installing-downlighters/

There‘s a link to their BPG 5.

 

[JohnS888]

https://www.-----------------------.../safer-installations/installing-downlighters/

There‘s a link to their BPG 5.

Thanks Midwest that's an interesting read and hits home quite abit around the safety of incorrect/incorrectly fitted downlights

 

[Wilko]

It might just be me, but single insulated live conductors should not be exposed and are potentially dangerous. And the flex likely won’t be properly strain relieved as well. So C2 from me.

 

[EricMark]

I have never trained as a fire preventative officer, and I don't see that are part of my remit when doing an EICR, I may put it in notes, but if the lights were removed and the originally ceiling rose fitted and holes left in ceiling would it fail an EICR, no it would not, so simply nothing to do with an EICR.

If there is a fire prevention report which picks them up then yes OK.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

I have never trained as a fire preventative officer, and I don't see that are part of my remit when doing an EICR, I may put it in notes, but if the lights were removed and the originally ceiling rose fitted and holes left in ceiling would it fail an EICR, no it would not, so simply nothing to do with an EICR.

If there is a fire prevention report which picks them up then yes OK.

Eric, your first sentence is a little worrying. You don't see fire prevention as part of your remit when doing an EICR?
In the schedule of Inspections of the EICR form, point 5.13 specifically relates to 'selection and erection of wiring systems to minimize the spread of fire'. See section 527 BS7671.

 

[DPG]

Deleted. My error.

 

[telectrix]

C3 for the xposed basic insulation.as regards the fire rating, all depends on whether the ceiling is a fire barrier or not.