Can you take 2 phases to a consumer unit?

[Corbs]

Its a flexible board

Hope that armor is glanded and terminated correctly

 

[Deleted account]

It is not a home made enclosure, It is made by contactum.
The box has a 400v sticker on it, so anybody who wishes to service it knows the potential voltage.

Hi gigsy,
It's not a home made enclosure, but someone has adapted it in such a way as it no longer resembles or performs as it was intended. Therefore it's a home made adaption to fit a second phase that it was not intended for.

P.S. What is an electrical improver?

 

[Pete999]

Hi gigsy,
It's not a home made enclosure, but someone has adapted it in such a way as it no longer resembles or performs as it was intended. Therefore it's a home made adaption to fit a second phase that it was not intended for.

P.S. What is an electrical improver?

It used to be in my time, someone who had done an apprenticeship and would normally spend the next 6 months as an Improver, that was what I did, mind you that was early 1960s. Don't know what it is these days what with apprenticeships the way they are structured.

 

[Gigsy]

Hi Gigsy, been keeping busy I see !
These boards are intended by manufacturers to be used for single phase. For more than one phase a 3 phase board should be used, in my humble opinion. I would drop an email to manufacturer's tech dept for their view.

Very good advise, thank you

 

[Gigsy]

Are you SO sure?

He seems to be defending its use rather than learning the reasons its not really suitable.

I would have said that this "box" needs a 3P isolator, in it, or at the very least adjacent to it.

I want to know if the board breaches any regulations. I have passed C&G level 2 regs exam. As far as I can see, no regulations have been breached here. I need to know so I can advise the owner of the building, if there is a breach of a regulation. I am not going to tell him this board needs changing until I know for sure it does. The work required to put it right (if anything is in breach of any regs) would be over £1000 in my opinion.

Is there is regulation which state a 3 phase isolator needs to be adjacent to it, or did you just make that up? If so can you give me the regulation number please?

 

[Gigsy]

No mate, I'm not sure. Just quoted what the OP stated in his first post. Lest ask...



@Gigsy . Did you wire up this CU or do any changes to it?

We have removed a circuit from this board.

 

[Gigsy]

No mate, I'm not sure. Just quoted what the OP stated in his first post. Lest ask...



@Gigsy . Did you wire up this CU or do any changes to it?

We have removed a circuit from this board.

Don't know if my last post went anywhere Gigsy, may seem a daft question, and I'm only asking because I'm not sure what I'm looking at, but have you canfirmedthat there are 2 phases present, by testing the Voltage between L2 and L3

Yes 400v between L2 and L3

 

[Gigsy]

Long time since I did any 3 phase stuff, but that doesn't appear to be a very good design. Either of those two DB's could be altered over time, and without in depth knowledge of the installation, one could be significantly altered in preference to the other. Unlikely to happen in a single dedicated 3P DB, IMO.

Agreed a 3 phase board would have been a better choice.

 

[Gigsy]

Anyone else notice the screws arnt done up (top left and right) someone could lift it up and pull it off the wall

The board was not powered at the time the photo was taken. We took the bottom screw out, the top screws are meant to be loose, you hang the board on the two top screws, then secure it with the bottom screw.

 

[Pete999]

It's Single Phase Consumers Unit and should be treated as such, not designed for more than a single phase supply, any difference doesnt comply with BS7671 In my opinion, don't really understand what all the debate is about.

 

[Gigsy]

Hope that armor is glanded and terminated correctly

Hope that armor is glanded and terminated correctly

I can confirm the armour is glanded and terminated correctly.

 

[Gigsy]

Hi gigsy,
It's not a home made enclosure, but someone has adapted it in such a way as it no longer resembles or performs as it was intended. Therefore it's a home made adaption to fit a second phase that it was not intended for.

P.S. What is an electrical improver?

The board is modular. It is designed so that accessories can be taken out and added as needs be.

Google electrical improver.

 

[Deleted account]

Hi Gigsy, been keeping busy I see !
These boards are intended by manufacturers to be used for single phase. For more than one phase a 3 phase board should be used, in my humble opinion. I would drop an email to manufacturer's tech dept for their view.

I refer you back to wilko's post. Only way to resolve this is to contact the manufacturer.
It sounds as though you think this is fine, if so that's what should be in your report and put your signature to it.

This is your job, your decision. No one can tell you what to advise your customer.

Equally your customer does not have to do anything you advise.

Good luck with it.

 

[Gigsy]

It's Single Phase Consumers Unit and should be treated as such, not designed for more than a single phase supply, any difference doesnt comply with BS7671 In my opinion, don't really understand what all the debate is about.

What makes you say that this board is designed for a single phase?

If you look at the specs of consumer units, you will find they do not state they are designed for a single phase?

 

[Deleted account]

It might not be. So contact the manufacturer to find out.

If I where doing this job I would advise what I think, but it doesn't matter what I think. You advise what you think?

 

[Gigsy]

I refer you back to wilko's post. Only way to resolve this is to contact the manufacturer.
It sounds as though you think this is fine, if so that's what should be in your report and put your signature to it.

This is your job, your decision. No one can tell you what to advise your customer.

Equally your customer does not have to do anything you advise.

Good luck with it.

Thank you. I actually do not like the design, but I can not find anything specifically against any regulations. This is why I am asking people in this forum for advice. I am not very experienced and I submit to the forums superior knowledge.

 

[Gigsy]

It might not be. So contact the manufacturer to find out.

If I where doing this job I would advise what I think, but it doesn't matter what I think. You advise what you think?

Thank you, I will contact the manufacturer

 

[Octopus]

Is there is regulation which state a 3 phase isolator needs to be adjacent to it, or did you just make that up? If so can you give me the regulation number please?

First point - worrying about the cost to put right is IRRELEVENT

Second point - if the installer had used a "multiple" phase board, then the board would have included a single isolator for ALL the board

Third point - best practice - I wouldn't install in that way

Forth point - Your duty is to improve / make safer - learning how to "cut corners" isn't a good idea

Fifth point - what did your mentor / boss say?

 

[Gigsy]

First point - worrying about the cost to put right is IRRELEVENT

Second point - if the installer had used a "multiple" phase board, then the board would have included a single isolator for ALL the board

Third point - best practice - I wouldn't install in that way

Forth point - Your duty is to improve / make safer - learning how to "cut corners" isn't a good idea

Fifth point - what did your mentor / boss say?

Boss don't like it either. We have been discussing what regulation it breaches, that is when I suggested I ask the forum.

 

[Pete999]

The board is modular. It is designed so that accessories can be taken out and added as needs be.

Google electrical improver.

Just googled "electrical improver" tells me SFA

 

[Octopus]

537.2.2.1

i.e, this dual phase fuseboard does not comply with this IMHO

 

[Pete999]

What makes you say that this board is designed for a single phase?

If you look at the specs of consumer units, you will find they do not state they are designed for a single phase?

If it was a multi phase dB it would be designed as such, not bodged with two phases at the will of someone who ought to know better.

 

[Pete999]

What makes you say that this board is designed for a single phase?

If you look at the specs of consumer units, you will find they do not state they are designed for a single phase?

If it was a multi phase dB it would be designed as such, not bodged with two phases at the will of someone who ought to know better. Why on Earth would you want to stick two phases in there? highly dangerous option imo.

 

[Gigsy]

Just googled "electrical improver" tells me SFA

Ask Siri?

 

[Gigsy]

If it was a multi phase dB it would be designed as such, not bodged with two phases at the will of someone who ought to know better. Why on Earth would you want to stick two phases in there? highly dangerous option imo.

Why is it very dangerous in your opinion?

 

[Midwest]

We took the bottom screw out, the top screws are meant to be loose, you hang the board on the two top screws, then secure it with the bottom screw.

Thats an interesting method of installation. I think you'll find that all fixing screws are meant to be tightened, not just to hang loosely in?

 

[Corbs]

Thats an interesting method of installation. I think you'll find that all fixing screws are meant to be tightened, not just to hang loosely in?

Yep agree with you 100%

If op says they don't need to be in why not use nails then

 

[Gigsy]

If it was a multi phase dB it would be designed as such, not bodged with two phases at the will of someone who ought to know better. Why on Earth would you want to stick two phases in there? highly dangerous option imo.

How would the d

537.2.2.1

i.e, this dual phase fuseboard does not comply with this IMHO

Thank you

 

[mossep]

Looking at the way this thread is going I don't think anyone will come up with any regulations that prevent you using a 'single phase board' for a multiple phase installation. If it had a clear label on the lid stating that 400v was present, and that both isolators should be switched off before removing the cover I would be ok with it. It may be rough and look like a badgers nest but its not unsafe in my opinion.

 

[Gigsy]

Thats an interesting method of installation. I think you'll find that all fixing screws are meant to be tightened, not just to hang loosely in?

top two are not meant to be tightened

 

[Midwest]

I'm orrfff

 

[Gigsy]

Looking at the way this thread is going I don't think anyone will come up with any regulations that prevent you using a 'single phase board' for a multiple phase installation. If it had a clear label on the lid stating that 400v was present, and that both isolators should be switched off before removing the cover I would be ok with it. It may be rough and look like a badgers nest but its not unsafe in my opinion.

Thank you for your objective opinion. I think I agree with you.

 

[mossep]

Looking the board up on Contactums website it complies with BSEN 61439, which states:

The new IEC 61439 standard applies to enclosures
for which the rated voltage is under 1000 V AC
(at frequencies not exceeding 1000 Hz) or 1500 V DC.

 

[Pete999]

Why is it very dangerous in your opinion?

It's hardly a common type installation with 2 isolation points when 1 will be the norm, imagine a Domestic installer or Eletrical improver turning up to do some work, only to find two live conductors in what is a fter all an enclosure designed for a single phase supply.
You can argue all you want, but in essencee that is what it is, a Consumers unit desgned for one supply with one singe point of isolation.

 

[mossep]

So the main switch is rated to 400v, and the enclosure as a whole is rated up to 1000v, Im not seeing any major issues here.

 

[Pete999]

top two are not meant to be tightened

Why? you might wish to improve your installation skills Gigsy. The top fixings are desgnedto be proud and not screwed tight until the Unit has been sited on the wall, and then and only then should they be screwed up tight along with the bottom fixings.

 

[Gigsy]

Looking the board up on Contactums website it complies with BSEN 61439, which states:

The new IEC 61439 standard applies to enclosures
for which the rated voltage is under 1000 V AC
(at frequencies not exceeding 1000 Hz) or 1500 V DC.

So this board can be used for a 3 phase 400V supply then?

 

[Octopus]

So this board can be used for a 3 phase 400V supply then?

You should consult Contactum technical support, by email, and see that they say.........

 

[Gigsy]

Looking the board up on Contactums website it complies with BSEN 61439, which states:

The new IEC 61439 standard applies to enclosures
for which the rated voltage is under 1000 V AC
(at frequencies not exceeding 1000 Hz) or 1500 V DC.

So this board can be used for a 3 phase 400V supply then?

It's hardly a common type installation with 2 isolation points when 1 will be the norm, imagine a Domestic installer or Eletrical improver turning up to do some work, only to find two live conductors in what is a fter all an enclosure designed for a single phase supply.
You can argue all you want, but in essencee that is what it is, a Consumers unit desgned for one supply with one singe point of isolation.

The board is in a hairdressers, not a domestic premises. Why would a domestic installer be doing electrical work in a commercial building. The board is clearly identified with a 400V warning sticker (i may add a sticker saying isolate both switches) I am an electrical improver, I noticed the sticker. There are two switches with black and grey wires going to them and the switches are labled L2 and L3. You can not fail to realise there are 2 phases going to the board.

What makes you say the enclosure is designed for a single phase supply?

The consumer unit is modular, it is not designed for one switch. You can add another switch, it is designed so that you can add another switch.

 

[Gigsy]

So the main switch is rated to 400v, and the enclosure as a whole is rated up to 1000v, Im not seeing any major issues here.

Thank you very much for taking the time to research the question and giving an informed opinion.