Ceiling Wiring Confusion (4 wires)

[DIYnewbie]

Hello forum,

I'm stumped about how to correctly and safely wire up a new light fitting and stupidly didn't take a picture of the existing ceiling rose set up before removing it. I was wondering if someone here could help me out! I've attached a picture of the four wires that are coming out of the ceiling, and I think the top black wire was going into the hole where the brown wire was connected on the ceiling rose pendant, and the bottom black wire was going into the hole where the blue wire was connected on the ceiling rose pendant. The other two must be part of the switching loop? But I just can't figure it out correctly, and have tried a couple of combinations only for the trip switch to go every time. In terms of the connection of the new light, it has just a blue and a brown going into a junction box that has 4 holes available on the other end, 2 that are lined up with the brown and 2 that are lined up with the blue...
Does anyone know how to correctly fix this?
Thanks in advance!!

View attachment 36042

 

[DivingDave]

My advice would be to forget about trying to connect them up different ways in the hope that it works, and just call out an electrician.

You will likely find they'll charge more than if you had of just called an electrician to begin I know I would charge more.

 

[dmxtothemax]

what exactly is the code for earthing in the UK ?
Are there lots of old instalations not earthed ?
What happens there ?

 

[Midwest]

Lighting circuits without cpc were the fashion in the UK prior to 1966 (13th Edition). So yes there are a lot still around. Obviously, the best fix, would be to rewire that particular circuit, but some customers either can't or won't afford this.

Another fix would be to run an earth from another circuit, but then you run the risk of that being inadvertently disconnected over time, or as I found recently an earth wire was used, bonded to a copper pipe.

There is another fix (following a risk assessment), that involves using only Class II luminaires and plastic light switches, then placing a pretty label on the consumer unit, indicating that particular circuit(s) does not have provision for earthing metal equipment. (Electrical Safety First - Best Practise Guide 1).

 

[driverman]

Is there more than one light in the room? If so, could be a loop. Has the problem be solved?

 

[westward10]

Not forgetting the pretty notice has absolutely no backbone in should you be faced with prosecution

Lighting circuits without cpc were the fashion in the UK prior to 1966 (13th Edition). So yes there are a lot still around. Obviously, the best fix, would be to rewire that particular circuit, but some customers either can't or won't afford this.

Another fix would be to run an earth from another circuit, but then you run the risk of that being inadvertently disconnected over time, or as I found recently an earth wire was used, bonded to a copper pipe.

There is another fix (following a risk assessment), that involves using only Class II luminaires and plastic light switches, then placing a pretty label on the consumer unit, indicating that particular circuit(s) does not have provision for earthing metal equipment. (Electrical Safety First - Best Practise Guide 1).

Is this sticker recognised by BS7671

 

[Midwest]

Not forgetting the pretty notice has absolutely no backbone in should you be faced with prosecution

Is this sticker recognised by BS7671

Its black font on a yellow background

 

[Leesparkykent]

hmmm....keeping an eye on this thread. I cant see why some people are so insistent on dishing out advice other than get an electrician in! Telling the OP to try connecting it this or that way is not on. And to make matters worse there is no CPC.

 

[telectrix]

think there is a cpc, lee. cpc standing for "cut protective conductor".

 

[westward10]

Most are advising this Lee as the wiring is a bit odd.

 

[westward10]

Lighting circuits without cpc were the fashion in the UK prior to 1966 (13th Edition). So yes there are a lot still around. Obviously, the best fix, would be to rewire that particular circuit, but some customers either can't or won't afford this.

Another fix would be to run an earth from another circuit, but then you run the risk of that being inadvertently disconnected over time, or as I found recently an earth wire was used, bonded to a copper pipe.

There is another fix (following a risk assessment), that involves using only Class II luminaires and plastic light switches, then placing a pretty label on the consumer unit, indicating that particular circuit(s) does not have provision for earthing metal equipment. (Electrical Safety First - Best Practise Guide 1).

What parameters would you base the risk assessment on and when assessment indicates a risk what measures would you put in place.

 

[telectrix]

What parameters would you base the risk assessment on and when assessment indicates a risk what measures would you put in place.

feet and inches, of course, sod them foriegn millipedes.

 

[Midwest]

Not forgetting the pretty notice has absolutely no backbone in should you be faced with prosecution

Is this sticker recognised by BS7671

Not my opinion I might add, just that of Electrical Safety First, one of the committee members of JPEL/64. They do have caveats, but it is put forward as a possible solution.

Quote; There is no legal requirement, and no regulation in BS 7671, requiring an existing electrical installation to be upgraded to current standards.
However, there is a requirement under the Building Regulations for England and Wales to leave the installation and the building no worse in terms of the level of compliance with other applicable parts of Schedule 1 to the Building Regulations than before the work was undertaken. (Schedule 1 gives the requirements with which building work must comply,).

I would normally advise rewiring that particular circuit, but as I said before some people can't or won't afford it.

Recently, doing a bathroom refurbishment, client wanted all sorts of changes to the lighting, but I discovered the circuit had no cpc. In the end, my client had just the batten holder replaced with a Class II fitting, which I found bizarre with the amount of money being spent on flashy showers and tiling etc but they couldn't afford the circuit rewired. Nought so queer as folk.

I of course could of just 'walked away', but I think at least I left the bathroom light slightly safer, than it was before.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

There is also a requirement in BS7671, not to leave an installation less safe.

 

[Midwest]

What parameters would you base the risk assessment on and when assessment indicates a risk what measures would you put in place.

To clarify, not my words, but that of Electrical Safety First - Best Practise Guide 1, as I alluded to in my post. The guide is freely available to down load, and to read.

 

[davesparks]

RED with Brown at separate connector Black from red to N and Black from Brown to L

this is the last point in circuit and new 3core is running from switch )

How do you know that this is the last point on the circuit and what the 3core is doing? Have you visited the property and looked at it?