Circuit Wire For Long Run | Page 3 | on ElectriciansForums

Discuss Circuit Wire For Long Run in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

Cookie

-
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
675
Reaction score
118
Location
Earth
Ok, say you've got a lighting run with the last fixture being 1,280 meters away. 1,800 watts per phase 3 phase, 277/480Y volts though in this example we can use 230/400Y for the ease of discussion.

My question is- what size wire do I run for each phase and earth? What disconnection time do I use? Do I use a Type B, C or D breaker? What should my max R1+R2 come out to be?





[ElectriciansForums.net] Circuit Wire For Long Run
 
I used this:

Looking at details it says 68F = 20C which is room temperature around my part of the world.

Also probably they are DC, starts to become a source of error for large conductors as skin effect kicks in.


I should know about this link! ????

Anyway, do you know of a table taking skin effect into account? For a while I've desperatly been searching for an AC resistance at 30*C.
 
I should know about this link! ????

Anyway, do you know of a table taking skin effect into account? For a while I've desperatly been searching for an AC resistance at 30*C.
At AC power frequencies the skin depth in copper is about 9mm, so any conductor that is less than around 20mm diameter it has quite a small effect. Somewhere there will be equations to allow its computation for different conductors but most folks in engineering take the easy route of getting a feel for when you can ignore something, and ignoring it.

For example it is unlikely you will know any AC system parameter to better than 5% uncertainty, let alone 1%, so once effects get down to the 5%-ish region they can be often ignored for most purposes.

The temperature coefficient for copper is around 0.00393 so each 10C increase in temperature has a 3.93% increase in resistance. Which is about 4%. Which is why the UK regs have a 0.8 factor for going from measured at 20C to Zs value working at 70C.

Yes, our regs do have detailed formulae for non-standard cases such as measurement very cold/hot and/or operation at unusually high temperatures, but that vast majority of industrial cases are just like commercial and domestic in the 20C test & 70C assumed max operation is perfectly applicable.

In terms of generic AC values we have tables in the regulations with the values to assume. For example this if for single cables in various configurations giving both the DC and AC "resistance" values (more correctly the voltage drop due to cable impedance):
[ElectriciansForums.net] Circuit Wire For Long Run
 
Last edited:
I take this to mean an RCD for disconnection is a no-no?
No, the UK regulations generally do not specify how you achieve disconnection, only the times, etc, needed for safety. But they do list approved device standards for doing so (e.g. BS / EN ones on fuses, MCB, RCD, etc).

That section you quoted (411.3.2.5) has been updated but really it was a clause to deal with cases where the usual fault disconnection (OCPD or RCD) are not feasible so other means of protecting against shock need to be considered (supplementary bonding, etc).

The note about "disconnection may be required for reasons other than protection against electric shock" is (I think) to point out you might need it for overload/fire protection anyway, even if that fails to meet the maximum disconnection times discussed in that section about shock protection.

But beyond that, there are other rules permitting no OCPD or special cases when disconnection might be more dangerous, e.g. support electromagnet in factory, etc.
 
In terms of generic AC values we have tables in the regulations with the values to assume. For example this if for single cables in various configurations giving both the DC and AC "resistance" values (more correctly the voltage drop due to cable impedance):
If you look closely at that table you can see where the skin effect comes in by comparing the DC volt drop with the resistive term 'r' in column 5, but more generally it is the total impedance 'z' that would be used for volt drop if dominated by the cable.

Though close to a transformer, etc, where reactance is also a big factor you would be separately adding the r & x terms and finally computing z = sqrt(r^2 + x^2) to get your impedance.
 
No, the UK regulations generally do not specify how you achieve disconnection, only the times, etc, needed for safety. But they do list approved device standards for doing so (e.g. BS / EN ones on fuses, MCB, RCD, etc).

That section you quoted (411.3.2.5) has been updated but really it was a clause to deal with cases where the usual fault disconnection (OCPD or RCD) are not feasible so other means of protecting against shock need to be considered (supplementary bonding, etc).

The note about "disconnection may be required for reasons other than protection against electric shock" is (I think) to point out you might need it for overload/fire protection anyway, even if that fails to meet the maximum disconnection times discussed in that section about shock protection.

But beyond that, there are other rules permitting no OCPD or special cases when disconnection might be more dangerous, e.g. support electromagnet in factory, etc.


Well, even in an IT system you still need to open device under a multi phase fault.

Thank you for explaining this to me, but I still think disconnection should not be accomplished via RCD, as RCDs can fail.
 
At AC power frequencies the skin depth in copper is about 9mm, so any conductor that is less than around 20mm diameter it has quite a small effect. Somewhere there will be equations to allow its computation for different conductors but most folks in engineering take the easy route of getting a feel for when you can ignore something, and ignoring it.

For example it is unlikely you will know any AC system parameter to better than 5% uncertainty, let alone 1%, so once effects get down to the 5%-ish region they can be often ignored for most purposes.

The temperature coefficient for copper is around 0.00393 so each 10C increase in temperature has a 3.93% increase in resistance. Which is about 4%. Which is why the UK regs have a 0.8 factor for going from measured at 20C to Zs value working at 70C.

Yes, our regs do have detailed formulae for non-standard cases such as measurement very cold/hot and/or operation at unusually high temperatures, but that vast majority of industrial cases are just like commercial and domestic in the 20C test & 70C assumed max operation is perfectly applicable.

In terms of generic AC values we have tables in the regulations with the values to assume. For example this if for single cables in various configurations giving both the DC and AC "resistance" values (more correctly the voltage drop due to cable impedance):
View attachment 84241
Alright, because in all honesty I'm trying to get these values down to 30*C:

[ElectriciansForums.net] Circuit Wire For Long Run
 
Just a tad bigger than I'm used to thinking about.... ?
To be fair it is a lot bigger than I ever have to deal with.

Also as you get to such large conductors there are good reasons to consider parallel sets instead. Not only are they a bit easier to wrangle, they have a higher current rating for the same overall CSA as cooling is usually better. However, you do have to consider cycling the sets to keep current flow, etc, balanced and you also need to look carefully about the OCPD implications for a fault half-way along one of the set, etc.
 
Last edited:
Well, even in an IT system you still need to open device under a multi phase fault.

Thank you for explaining this to me, but I still think disconnection should not be accomplished via RCD, as RCDs can fail.
As I said, I would consider RCD as my 2nd choice unless there is no reasonable alternative. So for a TT set-up you have no reasonable alternative so it is a RCD.

Also you can take steps to improve the reliability:
  • Having two RCD in series is on obvious case (so domestic TT example with a 100mA delay incomer and 30mA per circuit RCBOs).
  • Fitting SPD to reduce the chance of RCD electronic damage due to lightning surges, etc.
  • Having and enforcing a 6 month periodic trip-test is another good idea.
 
Last edited:
Alright, because in all honesty I'm trying to get these values down to 30*C:
If it is 75-30 = 45C colder then it would be 17.7% lower for the resistive part.

For big cables with X dominating Z the overall difference is going to be less, as that won't change much with temperature.
 

Reply to Circuit Wire For Long Run in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

News and Offers from Sponsors

  • Article
Join us at electronica 2024 in Munich! Since 1964, electronica has been the premier event for technology enthusiasts and industry professionals...
    • Like
Replies
0
Views
184
  • Sticky
  • Article
Good to know thanks, one can never have enough places to source parts from!
Replies
4
Views
560
  • Article
OFFICIAL SPONSORS These Official Forum Sponsors May Provide Discounts to Regular Forum Members - If you would like to sponsor us then...
Replies
0
Views
516

Similar threads

  • Question
This contactor you suggested unfortunately only has two NO switches rather than 1 NC and 1 NO required for the CR3 current sensing bypass...
Replies
14
Views
1K
  • Question
CONCLUSION (Couldn't see how to edit title) It was not belting it down with rain today, so lifted the manhole cover. The pump is about 2 metres...
2 3 4
Replies
45
Views
5K

OFFICIAL SPONSORS

Electrical Goods - Electrical Tools - Brand Names Electrician Courses Green Electrical Goods PCB Way Electrical Goods - Electrical Tools - Brand Names Pushfit Wire Connectors Electric Underfloor Heating Electrician Courses
These Official Forum Sponsors May Provide Discounts to Regular Forum Members - If you would like to sponsor us then CLICK HERE and post a thread with who you are, and we'll send you some stats etc

YOUR Unread Posts

This website was designed, optimised and is hosted by untold.media Operating under the name Untold Media since 2001.
Back
Top