Consumer Unit in Bathroom

[ChrisElectrical88]

Been asked to carry out some works in a bathroom. The clients mains board, cutout and meter are in the airing cupboard of the bathroom currently. As part of the plans they are removing the airing cupboard and plan to just put a standard cupboard with a lock around the mains board which will now be in the bathroom at high level. It will be out of Zones.
I haven’t found out if all circuits are RCD protected yet, I’m also not a fan of it idea but what regs does this go against been out of zone, in a locked cupboard?

 

[LastManOnline]

Unfortunately common sense has very little to do with this kind of thing.
A law says what a law says. It may not be what you'd like it to say, or even what it was meant to say, but until a judgement on case law clarifies what it means, then it means exactly what it says.

Could you say that again in English please

 

[brianmoooore]

If plain English would suffice, then we wouldn't need lawyers, and what sort of world would that be?

 

[LastManOnline]

Could you say that again in English please

Seriously though I am always a little amused at the reaction "using common sense" gets at times on electrical forums. It's interesting how the regs stipulate "All the senses" should be used when assessing an electrical Installation. But I must achknowledge they do not specifically mention "commonsense". I live in hope?

 

[LastManOnline]

Unfortunately common sense has very little to do with this kind of thing.
A law says what a law says. It may not be what you'd like it to say, or even what it was meant to say, but until a judgement on case law clarifies what it means, then it means exactly what it says.

What laws or regs did you have in mind? In the discussion to date it does, nt appear anyone has found the CU has been located in a location where its contravening any regs?

 

[DPG]

What laws or regs did you have in mind? In the discussion to date it does, nt appear anyone has found the CU has been located in a location where its contravening any regs?

Suitability for environmental influences? Situated in a steamy environment with no protection other than a cupboard door?

Just adding to discussion, not saying it's a fail as such. Not ideal though certainly.

 

[LastManOnline]

Suitability for environmental influences? Situated in a steamy environment with no protection other than a cupboard door?

Just adding to discussion, not saying it's a fail as such. Not ideal though certainly.

Would, nt disagree with anything you say there. And as I said earlier the whole bathroom location rubs us all up the wrong way. Probably fair to say its a one off. But if there is no practical way of moving the CU out of the bathroom (budget issue) and equally if there are no regs been broken and the spark on site is happy that the locked cupboard is adequate, then I would personally be happy to let it as it is.

 

[Spoon]

Stick the CU in an IP67 rated enclosure. Job done.

 

[Lister1987]

My first port of call would be the manufacturer technical documentation for the cutout and electrical meter to see if there is anything in either that precludes it from being in a high humidity location in close proxity to jets of water.

Engineering judgement (not common sense) would say to move all switchgear outside of that bathroom, whether it is in zone, out of zone or neither.

 

[Intoelectrics]

Agreed. By the way I was really glad to see your statement "I would apply common sense".

If more people applied "common sense" then the world would be a better place!

Common sense is a broad term and one person to the next may have differing opinions on what common sense might apply.
My point though was, if there is no obvious breach in the regulations then the next port of call would be to consider things that may be outside this scope or indeed not covered in great detail. DPG mentioned "suitable for environmental influences", this is an example of such a consideration that is covered in the regs, and well pointed out.

Your first and most important consideration is safety, after this all other considerations are to determine the suitability of the design so that there is minimal deterioration, accessibility, maintenance, equipment ratings, specs, requirements, manufacturers guides, etc...

Maybe Spoon's suggestion of a suitable IP rated enclosure would be a solution?

 

[LastManOnline]

My first port of call would be the manufacturer technical documentation for the cutout and electrical meter to see if there is anything in either that precludes it from being in a high humidity location in close proxity to jets of water.

Engineering judgement (not common sense) would say to move all switchgear outside of that bathroom, whether it is in zone, out of zone or neither.

"Good sense and sound judgement in practical matters" is one definition of common sense.

It conveys the idea of using all available knowledge and experience to the table to enhance decision making. What is to be gained by turning our backs on newly acquired knowledge or experience?

 

[Let me think]

Think you only learn "common-sense" from the mistake(s) you make/witness - assuming you survive them

Just for what it's worth, I would go with not suitable for environment for having (I assume metal) CU in an bathroom in which temperature and humidity vary sharply over a short period of time, just look at level of condensation that appears on bathroom mirror, cold taps, etc, when shower or hot taps are turn on - even with a decent extractor fan.

Of course this can all be mitigated, if the everything is allowed to climatise as per manufactures specs (if manufacturer actually provided you with specs for this - good luck), but I'm not aware of any domestic environment that takes this into consideration. Could argue with CU in cupboard the it's 'protected' from sudden change in bathroom environment until you open the cupboard door - who would open the door to the CU just after a hot steamy shower? common-sense lesson in the making.....

Cut a long(ish) story short, not something I would be willing to do.

 

[LastManOnline]

Think you only learn "common-sense" from the mistake(s) you make/witness - assuming you survive them

Just for what it's worth, I would go with not suitable for environment for having (I assume metal) CU in an bathroom in which temperature and humidity vary sharply over a short period of time, just look at level of condensation that appears on bathroom mirror, cold taps, etc, when shower or hot taps are turn on - even with a decent extractor fan.

Of course this can all be mitigated, if the everything is allowed to climatise as per manufactures specs (if manufacturer actually provided you with specs for this - good luck), but I'm not aware of any domestic environment that takes this into consideration. Could argue with CU in cupboard the it's 'protected' from sudden change in bathroom environment until you open the cupboard door - who would open the door to the CU just after a hot steamy shower? common-sense lesson in the making.....

Cut a long(ish) story short, not something I would be willing to do.

When it comes to the effect of steam in the bathroom I often consider a shower pullswitch. Quite often they are mounted next to the cubicle and enveloped in steam everyday, several times a day. I personally am against the practice, though its allowed by the regs. Installing the shower isolator switch outside the bathroom alongside the light switch is the way I like to do it. I also find pullswitches ugly. That said I am required to change pull switches in bathrooms regularly. I have yet to come across one that has been compromised by water (shower spray) or steam. Never a sign of water ingress or tracking due to moisture. That helps to put a CU mounted in a bathroom, outsides the zones with a suitable IP rating, plus been enclosed in a locked cupboard, in a more agreeable context for me

 

[Intoelectrics]

I've often come across CU's installed in kitchens where they are quite close to cooker extraction hoods etc.. and found them exposed to steam from cooking and covered in slimy grease. The more I think about it the less concerned I'm becoming.
My thoughts would follow as such;

• Is it safe
• Does it breach any regs
• Would it be subject to environmental conditions which could increase deterioration or cause damage
• Is it accessible for maintenance

If the answers to those questions are not satisfactory is there a sensible and acceptable solution to solve this.
So for example - will the cupboard enclosure be suitable to achieve this? Personally, if its safe, protects the contents from environmental issues and is suitably accessible for maintenance. Then I can't think of a reason to dismiss it (provided it has absolutely been determined that it is within regs).

Tin Hat On!!

 

[LastManOnline]

I've often come across CU's installed in kitchens where they are quite close to cooker extraction hoods etc.. and found them exposed to steam from cooking and covered in slimy grease. The more I think about it the less concerned I'm becoming.
My thoughts would follow as such;

• Is it safe
• Does it breach any regs
• Would it be subject to environmental conditions which could increase deterioration or cause damage
• Is it accessible for maintenance

If the answers to those questions are not satisfactory is there a sensible and acceptable solution to solve this.
So for example - will the cupboard enclosure be suitable to achieve this? Personally, if its safe, protects the contents from environmental issues and is suitably accessible for maintenance. Then I can't think of a reason to dismiss it (provided it has absolutely been determined that it is within regs).

Tin Hat On!!

You summarise my thoughts much better than I did?

 

[Mike Johnson]

My one reservation is the locked cupboard, how do you get to the CU cut out in an emergency?