Dangerous mains - Please help me identify this

[Rayan Jawad]

Hi All,

I'm living in a pretty dangerous situation - Please can you help?

A few months ago, the electricity in my first/second floor flat blew out, as did my neighbours. It turns out that there was a fault in a mains component under the stairs.

I had to get an electrician out late at night just to make it safe, albeit a temporary fix. I've linked a photo of it here (Click here).

I have no idea what this component is called but:

1. No Electrician is willing to touch it
2. The insurance company says it's the responsibility of the energy supplier
3. My energy supplier says it's the responsibility of the network (UK Power Networks)
4. UK Power networks say it's not their responsibility and I need to get an electrician.

I'm stuck in an infinite loop!

So my question - Please could someone advise me on

1. What this component is called
2. Is it before or after the meter
3. Any advice on who is responsible for fixing it

 

[littlespark]

From the photo, it looks to be BEFORE the meter, meaning its your suppliers responsibility.... likely needs the power network involved.
No domestic electrician will touch it as it cannot be isolated.
The taped up objects are just joint boxes, much like the black box screwed to the wall under your meter.
The installation there is a mess, and I cant believe it wasn't sorted out when the new meter was installed. 2008?
Someone's left a screwdriver on the floor

 

[Rayan Jawad]

The supplier (UK Power Networks) are saying that because this is a secondary cut out, they are not responsible for fixing it.

The installation looks like a mess to me too, but I'm no professional here - this is how the property was when I purchased it, except the two joint boxes were on the wall in the box (and the box didn't have a cover, in case thats relevant?)

According to UK Power Networks it's the job of a qualified domestic electrician, but none of them are willing to help.

I'm so lost / tired of living in a dangerous situation.

Any thoughts?

 

[Rayan Jawad]

From the photo, it looks to be BEFORE the meter, meaning its your suppliers responsibility.... likely needs the power network involved.
No domestic electrician will touch it as it cannot be isolated.
The taped up objects are just joint boxes, much like the black box screwed to the wall under your meter.
The installation there is a mess, and I cant believe it wasn't sorted out when the new meter was installed. 2008?
Someone's left a screwdriver on the floor

Forgot to add - Thanks for your prompt reply, by the way

 

[Wes1000]

Someone's left a screwdriver on the floor

That will be the last person who left the mess of cables we are looking at. They probably left in a hurry.
If it’s a secondary cutout and you can isolate it then a competent electrician should be able to sort that out and either tidy up what’s there or fit a new cutout.

 

[Rayan Jawad]

That will be the last person who left the mess of cables we are looking at. They probably left in a hurry.
I’d call the DNO and tell them you have cables with what looks like electrical tape wrapped around them as protection, before the meter so you can’t isolate them.

Thanks for this - I'm not sure who's screw driver this is, I've never really touched under the stairs ever since I bought the place.

The DNO are saying that the power can be isolated from the main cut out in the shop downstairs, so this isn't their responsibility because this is the secondary cut out.

Is this correct?

 

[Richard Burns]

The situation there is somewhat confused but it looks like your service cable to the property, before the service head (the main fuse), has a looped supply i.e. it feeds your place and somewhere else downstairs.
This is very unsafely arranged in taped over Henley blocks partially within a joint box.
This is before your service head and before your meter and is part of the service cable to installation.

This is without doubt the responsibility of the Distribution network operator, although they will almost certainly state that someone else has worked on it it is not safe and is not sealed.

The attached diagram shows the areas of responsibility for parts of the installation.
The joint box and cable that you have there are positioned at the point labelled 1 in the diagram.

 

[Rayan Jawad]

The situation there is somewhat confused but it looks like your service cable to the property, before the service head (the main fuse), has a looped supply i.e. it feeds your place and somewhere else downstairs.
This is very unsafely arranged in taped over Henley blocks partially within a joint box.
This is before your service head and before your meter and is part of the service cable to installation.

This is without doubt the responsibility of the Distribution network operator, although they will almost certainly state that someone else has worked on it it is not safe and is not sealed.

The attached diagram shows the areas of responsibility for parts of the installation.
The joint box and cable that you have there are positioned at the point labelled 1 in the diagram.
View attachment 42932

Thanks for this Richard - the problem is they are saying that because this is a secondary cut out - it's not their equipment. Is this the case?

 

[Squid]

You mention shop, are you in a flat above a shop as the supply "could" be fed from the shop somehow.

 

[Richard Burns]

Ahh, just seen your post, you are supplied from the shop downstairs and if that is a secondary cutout then the meter beyond it must be a check meter rather than a electricity supplier meter and you would pay the shop for electricity rather than having a bill from the electricity supplier.

If this is the case then the service head above the open black box is just a remnant of a previous supply and the cable from the shop is the responsibility of an electrician, however the electrician would need to know and be shown the connections in the shop to be able to work on this without danger of electric shock or prosecution.
Just looking at the mess you have in the photo any electrician would say they cannot work on that part of the supply.
If they know it is a sub main from the shop then they may well be able to work on it.

 

[Rayan Jawad]

Ahh, just seen your post, you are supplied from the shop downstairs and if that is a secondary cutout then the meter beyond it must be a check meter rather than a electricity supplier meter and you would pay the shop for electricity rather than having a bill from the electricity supplier.

If this is the case then the service head above the open black box is just a remnant of a previous supply and the cable from the shop is the responsibility of an electrician, however the electrician would need to know and be shown the connections in the shop to be able to work on this without danger of electric shock or prosecution.
Just looking at the mess you have in the photo any electrician would say they cannot work on that part of the supply.
If they know it is a sub main from the shop then they may well be able to work on it.

No, I definitely pay the electricity provider directly (first utilities, to be precise). I don't pay the shop.

I believe the electrician can disconnect both my flat and the flat next door from the shop downstairs pretty easily. So I presume that makes the box in my flat a sub-main?

 

[Wes1000]

I believe the electrician can disconnect both my flat and the flat next door from the shop downstairs pretty easily. So I presume that makes the box in my flat a sub-main?

It would appear so. Just make sure you explain this to the electrician and they can check it out and hopefully sort the mess out for you.

 

[Richard Burns]

I think it would be best to get an electrician out who can see the arrangement themselves on site.
It should not be very easy to disconnect you from the shop as any fuse there should be sealed, as should the supply at the Henley blocks, the fuse in your picture and the meter.
If the meter in your picture is the meter by which you pay then anything before that should not be down to an electrician, although there could be a local company acting as a building network operator who has responsibility for the power distribution within the building.

 

[snowhead]

It would need a photo of the cutout /meter arrangement in the shop to confirm that the supply into the flat's box / cutout is after the main cutout fuses and can be isolated.

If so, as the issue is with the unmetered supply to the O.P flat and at least one other, it's the joint responsibility of all the flats connected or if there is one, the managing agent / B.N.O (as R Burns above).

Ultimately it will be the Flat owners that pay.

If the supply from the shop is before UKPN fuse then I suspect they'll move to the fused side, they won't adopt the cables to the flats given their state.

 

[UNG]

Trying to understand the comment "the electricity in my first/second floor flat blew out" and how this was temporarily repaired if nobody wants to take responsibility for repairs / rectification work as the electrician who did the temporary repair must be able to shed some light on where responsibility for the supply lies

Or is this a historic landlord bodge and and subsequent bodges have occurred over time and now nobody wants to take responsibility for the installation now

 

[Octopus]

Do you have any access to where the supply comes from in the shop below ? If you could you post a picture?

I do think this is the DNO's responsibility, but they too would probably need access to the shop below to confirm.

 

[stevels4]

That is the strangest secondary cut out I have ever seen.
Being before the meter it IS the responsibility of the DNO in your case UKPN.
Ring them on 115 and tell them you have exposed live conductors BEFORE your meter and quote them code A04.
They have a duty to attend within 3 hours to rectify the problem which would probably involve replacing the sub main with split concentric and fitting a red link for local isolation.

 

[Aurai]

May or may not help as it might be dependent on the crew that turn up. We had an elderly fuse arrangement, fused live and fused neutral tails, to the meter. UKPN came along and did the work, but in discussion did advise they did not have to. The fuse was serving a flat above retail space, and as far as the UKPN team were concerned, their remit stopped at the supply head in the shop. Cheers

 

[stevels4]

That is the strangest secondary cut out I have ever seen.
Being before the meter it IS the responsibility of the DNO in your case UKPN.
Ring them on 115 and tell them you have exposed live conductors BEFORE your meter and quote them code A04.
They have a duty to attend within 3 hours to rectify the problem which would probably involve replacing the sub main with split concentric and fitting a red link for local isolation.

Sorry should be 105 not 115 for phone number.

 

[Paul P]

We did a flat conversion from an office block to 10 flats. UK Power would only supply a 400A head and it was our problem to fit a chamber with henly fuses inside it and run tails to where the meters were.

It seems like UK Power have washed there hands of your kind of supplies.

This job was a sharp learning curve so not many sparks would know what the new plan is.

 

[Which One’s Live?]

I agree with an earlier post that this is a Building Network Operator (BNO) issue. However, this can leave you as “piggy in the middle” because nobody wants to take responsibility.

I’m not surprised to hear UK Power won’t touch it, as they see their responsibility lying with the incoming supply at the cutout/fuse only, and anything beyond that is the energy provider and building owners.

However, you’ll probably find that your energy provider will need convincing that it is their issue as well. I know this is frustrating, and I’ve seen situations where customers find themselves, as I said above, between a rock and a hard place.

I would get the landlord/freeholders on your side and get them to help you resolve it.

Also, depending on how helpful your energy provider/meter engineer is, they may be willing to install a new cutout/ red head, for you. They can be ordered as part of their stock, so they should have them in the van.

 

[Amp David]

I’ll sort it out if uou’re nearby

 

[stevels4]

I’ll sort it out if uou’re nearby

Bit of a journey into UKPN territory maybe.

 

[Amp David]

Haha good point, never even thought.

Saying that, i’m in cromer at the minute so couldbe close