Death penalty

[BES]

I wonder how any of us would feel if someone was killed as a result of work we'd done believing we knew all the info ( but didn't ) about something we were installing or had a preconceived notion that we knew it all anyway and didn't need to read the manufacturers instructions or not test something because it's a forgone conclusion.
An innocent life gone because we were so clever we knew it all.
When someone is dead its too late to put things right.
I wouldn't be able to live with that......

Now imagine yourself on a jury where the charge is murder and capital punishment exists.

Good job you weren't in Nuremberg you would have given them community service.
Have a look for Westley allan dodd and see if you could have sentenced him to death.

 

[Des 56]

Good job you weren't in Nuremberg you would have given them community service.

or Maybe failing the electric chair after a Pat test
It being a serious shock hazard you know lol

 

[Slowhand]

Good job you weren't in Nuremberg you would have given them community service.
Have a look for Westley allan dodd and see if you could have sentenced him to death.

Have you ever sat on a jury?

 

[SPARTYKUS]

This is an interesting thread, many differing opinikns on the subject, from many people who I like & respect.

 

[Tiny Spark]

Ile start with saying I am not religeous, I respect others beliefs but have no intrest in something that can not be proven "beyond reasonable doubt".
If I was religeous maybe my view would be different, I dont know but I think someone who plots and schemes to do so much harm to people have no human rights.
Lee Rigbys killers come up alot in here so I will focus on that.

Those ******* deliberatly and intentionally went out to mutilate and kill that poor man.
In those situations it makes me appreciate our armed police, As despite the crap they get they didnt kill them.
I can not say I would of done the same, Infact I would of felt quite content in ending their misserable lifes.

Am I harsh or slightly sadistic? Possibly.

Would I have the same feeling towards someone like say Oscar Pistorious? No I wouldnt.

9/11 Terrorists, Yes, Jimmy Saville Yes!

All those individuals commited in my mind crimes that simply can not be forgiven and I personally would begrudge paying to give them a cosy prison cell and 3 meals a day.
Ide much rather foot the bill for a 20p bullet and the Executioner.

Regarding Jail sentences (and this applys to all sentences not just serious crimes) I feel the system is messed up.
You have someone as ****ed in the head as Jon Venables who was rightly sent down with his mate for killing poor little James Bulger, He should of been made someones bitch or shanked inside, TBH I couldnt care less but instead he was released and then commited more crimes.
Why? Why was this low life **** released?

On the flip side you have one of my close friends who got sent down for 2 years (served) and his crime you ask?
Drunkely shouting "I should kill you!" to his ex girlfriend who was safely locked in her house with her son she wouldnt allow him to see.
He ended up in a high security prison.

So yes I think it should be brought back for certain crimes, But TBH I think the system needs fixing first.

 

[RogertheBodger]

So in such a system as practiced in the USA you're far more likely to be on death row after killing someone if you're black, poor, poorly educated or a combination of all three.
Is that justice?

Is what Justice?

I'm sure that no posters on this thread have suggested that, poor, black, poorly educated people, have been been given the death sentence just because of the background they come from. Is that what you think, I'm surprised.

 

[trev]

Is what Justice?

I'm sure that no posters on this thread have suggested that, poor, black, poorly educated people, have been been given the death sentence just because of the background they come from. Is that what you think, I'm surprised.

No one has suggested it Roger but a few have suggested, or appeared to suggest, a tiered system whereby certain types of murder would attract the death penalty while others would not.
I'm simply pointing out that in a place where such a system exists the economically and/or educationally disadvantaged and those who are black are far more likely to find themselves on a charge of capital murder than rich white people with a good standard of education.

 

[plugsandsparks]

Is what Justice?

I'm sure that no posters on this thread have suggested that, poor, black, poorly educated people, have been been given the death sentence just because of the background they come from. Is that what you think, I'm surprised.

It appears to me that if you are rich or well educated or connected to the right people, you can get yourself an half decent defence lawyer to argue the case. So I think the point is that just perhaps justice (that is "getting off") is a function of wealth and probably education. OJ Simpson and Pistorias immediately spring to mind.

 

[Guest77]

No one has suggested it Roger but a few have suggested, or appeared to suggest, a tiered system whereby certain types of murder would attract the death penalty while others would not.
I'm simply pointing out that in a place where such a system exists the economically and/or educationally disadvantaged and those who are black are far more likely to find themselves on a charge of capital murder than rich white people with a good standard of education.

Jimmy saville is white, even if he was black I would still want him dead.

 

[RogertheBodger]

No one has suggested it Roger but a few have suggested, or appeared to suggest, a tiered system whereby certain types of murder would attract the death penalty while others would not.
I'm simply pointing out that in a place where such a system exists the economically and/or educationally disadvantaged and those who are black are far more likely to find themselves on a charge of capital murder than rich white people with a good standard of education.

Maybe "tiered" is not the right word Trev, as in the difference between black or white, rich or poor, I would hate to think that was the case and would be dead set against it.

What has been suggested by some in this thread, in my opinion, is that there are different classes of Murder, first, second degree, manslaughter etc, and they would all attract different sentences in the event of a guilty verdict, added to these different sentences would be further adjustments to the sentence due to mitigating factors etc. Were the death sentence to be in force in the UK then it should only be pronounced in the most clear cut and proven of cases, as in the cases where video evidence is available and guilt is indisputable, and then only for the most evil of crimes. Equally beyond doubt is that this legal structure should be applied across the board to all levels of society, whatever their social status or color.

Perhaps the ability of the rich to hire a battery of the top defense lawyers will buy them a not guilty verdict or a reduced sentence, but if the sentence is death, that should be an even more secure conviction because the defense lawyers will have left no stone unturned during the trial.

I would say that most violent crime is carried out by the most disadvantaged sections of society, does this include a large percentage of black people, I don't know the stats, not sure we want to get into that anyway.

 

[Adam W]

The death penalty for Jimmy Saville isn't going to work, since he was dead and buried before his atrocities came to light.

Harsher sentencing, the ultimate one being the death penalty, always seems to be the cover-all deterrent to committing a crime, but that's no good if there's a good chance you'll get away with it. People wouldn't commit crimes if crime didn't pay.

 

[trev]

Jimmy saville is white, even if he was black I would still want him dead.

I think you're missing my point Mike. The fact of the matter is, as I've pointed out, in the US you're more likely to be on trial for your life if you're black, poor and not well educated.
Yes you could argue that those people are more likely to commit a murder but there have been a lot of cases where a similar murder has been committed but the accused come from different ends of the social spectrum. One person ends up on death row while the other gets a prison sentence with a light at the end of the tunnel

 

[BES]

Good job you weren't in Nuremberg you would have given them community service.
Have a look for Westley allan dodd and see if you could have sentenced him to death.

Have you ever sat on a jury?

Yes I have and your point is ?

 

[BES]

Jimmy saville is white, even if he was black I would still want him dead.

I think you're missing my point Mike. The fact of the matter is, as I've pointed out, in the US you're more likely to be on trial for your life if you're black, poor and not well educated.
Yes you could argue that those people are more likely to commit a murder but there have been a lot of cases where a similar murder has been committed but the accused come from different ends of the social spectrum. One person ends up on death row while the other gets a prison sentence with a light at the end of the tunnel

Trev.You make some good points on the death penalty in the USA. With each state having there own policy on the death penalty its possible to commit murder in one state and get put to death and 10 miles down the road in another state commit same crime and be sentanced to life with parole or in a different state life without. Since 'Furman' came down the amount of time spent on death row as gone from at a guess a matter of months in the first half of the 20th century to now 10 -15 yrs some as long as unbeleivably 30 yrs.
Yes especially in the southern 'death belt states ' race , education & wealth has always been and most likely always will determine if you get the death penalty or not. You've got to remember Texas who lead the way in executions were still executing for rape into the 1960's.
I too was againt the death penalty for the simple reason like others that 1% chance your executing the wrong person but certain cases such as the Rigby murder, Huntley , Sutcliff , Brady & Hindley and many more in this country and the likes of Dodd, Bundy , Gacy in the USA and others around the world like the guy in Norway , can't remember his name .With all the names lve metioned there was no doubt they commited the crime they were convicted of , in the Dodd case he said if he ever was released he would commit the same crimes again , these are the people who should be executed.
Many innocent people have been executed in the past and will be in the future in certain parts of the world and just one is too many but when there is absolutley no doubt like the names I've mention please explain why they should not be executed.

 

[Engineer54]

Sorry for not being clear
They are the sentence as imposed added to the age of the scum

My point being in his case there may be no whole life sentence
He may be free to have another go in his 60s at worst,before that it will be the usual case of releasing a prisoner on parole years before full sentence is served
He could be looking forward to many years wandering free.
As i stated above, parole tends to kick in after 2/3rds of the sentence has been served, but it has been known for parole to start much earlier

I completely agree with the comment about a politician having no role in sentence review other than referal
I find it to be totally unacceptable for a politician to start handing down prison sentences, especially ''Whole Life'' sentences...

Whilst mentioning parole and going back to my post about making prison horrendous
Parole should be consideration of behaviour after serving the full term
Parole is a term for being freed from incarceration under warrant while the sentence continues. So you can't have a parole situation when the full term has been served, the prisoner will have in effect have paid his price to soceity...

It should be a case of "be a good boy and the sentence may not be increased for bad behaviour"
"Be a naughty boy" and the sentence is increased to suit.
That goes on now, commit offences against the prison rules and the prisoner will face additional time to serve. For minor offences, sentences are handed down by the prison Governor, for serious offences a visiting County Court Judge hears the case and can hand down a longer additional sentence than the Governor can. Or if it's a very serious offence refer the case to be heard by a high court....

The law in the UK has always been a --- anyway, far too many rules in place to protect the accused than anything like there are to protect the victims....