Death penalty

[RogertheBodger]

Timothy Evans and Barry George, two people who were found guilty beyond reasonable doubt (which is the legal test) one was hanged and the other would have been had we still had the death penalty.

I did say beyond ANY doubt Trev, it's unlikely that any cases could be proved to that standard, but IF it was, and it was a case deserving of the death sentence what would you say then?

How many people have been executed by mistake in the past, set against the number of people who have been, and continue to be murdered?
Having a death penalty is not only about the rights of the accused, it's also about deterrence and the right to justice for the families of the victims.

I'm not advocating the return of the death penalty anytime soon, but would you be so forcefully against it if the victim was one of your own, because there are a lot of people in that position these days.

 

[rapparee]

with modern forensic techniques hopefully miscarriages of justice won't happen so much. Unfortunately there is no perfect justice system.

.

Brian shivers was wrongly convicted of the rira masserene army barracks shooting in 2009, he has since been totally vindicated and the dna evidence was deemed to be dodgey

 

[RogertheBodger]

Like what happened to jean charles de menzes that brazillian electrician

He wasn't a terrorist. What happened to him was a tragedy that shouldn't have happened, but it had nothing to do with the death penalty.

You do know that when I say shoot terrorists on sight, I mean when they are carrying out a terrorist act, or we wouldn't know they were terrorists would we?

For instance the two who killed Lee Rigby, they survived to have their day in court, to perform in court on the world stage, giving their crackpot ideas and warped philosophy to all the impressionable Muslims around the world. Should have put an end to it there and then, over and done with.

 

[trev]

I did say beyond ANY doubt Trev, it's unlikely that any cases could be proved to that standard, but IF it was, and it was a case deserving of the death sentence what would you say then?

How many people have been executed by mistake in the past, set against the number of people who have been, and continue to be murdered?
Having a death penalty is not only about the rights of the accused, it's also about deterrence and the right to justice for the families of the victims.

I'm not advocating the return of the death penalty anytime soon, but would you be so forcefully against it if the victim was one of your own, because there are a lot of people in that position these days.

That's a very emotive argument which is trotted out by pro death penalty advocates but (hopefully) it's a situation I'll never have to face because I, nor anyone else, can realistically answer it. I think I'd prefer for the person to spend the rest of his or her life in prison rather than getting a quick release at the end of a rope but like I say, I can't guarantee I'd feel that way.
That said, I have read articles where the families of victims have said the same because it doesn't bring the person back. Imo it's not a punishment, it's revenge and I don't think revenge has a place in the criminal justice system.
To my way of thinking you either support the death penalty or you do not. You can't say that person A should hang for his crime but person B shouldn't and there have been too many miscarriages of justice for me to be comfortable with it

 

[Adam W]

Like what happened to jean charles de menzes that brazillian electrician

In the case of jean charles de menzes it wasn't so much 'death penalty' for something he'd done, but something the police perceived he would do, based on their background information.

Upon further investigation it turns out they shot (murdered if you will) an innocent electrician.
They made a mistake there.

 

[Engineer54]

I don't know that the Koran has much relevance here - these are extremists who believe their religion justifies killing a soldier or policeman in the country where they live. Or killing a member of their own family who they believe has brought shame on the family.

The outcome these extremists are looking for is to be shot by the police for doing something they believe is in the interests of their religion, and not to get beaten up in jail. If they believe dying in this way will ensure them a better next life, the threat of being shot dead is no deterrent, it's even an incentive.

So who gives a flying ---- what they want or don't want, if they are shot dead by police/security services or executed by a state, they are dead, and no longer a threat to anyone, so where's the problem??

EDIT.... Don't make the mistake of considering these fanatical extremists/terrorists in the same light as your typical criminal murderer, they are about as far removed from your typical criminal element as you could possibly get. That's half the trouble with western thinking, they have no idea or just don't understand who or what they are dealing with.

 

[Adam W]

So who gives a flying ---- what they want or don't want, if they are shot dead by police/security services or executed by a state, they are dead, so where's the problem??

The problem is that that's what they want.

 

[Engineer54]

The problem is that that's what they want.

That's fine, that's not any form of problem, they are dead and out of circulation.... If you are under the ill found impression that it encourages others, they have already been well and truly indoctrinated it make's no difference whatsoever, so why would you invest millions keeping this scum alive in prison (life sentence) and possibly creating other problems during their incarceration??

 

[Guest77]

Just to inflame the situation here, IMO, the 2 guys who were caught on film beheading lee rigby should be set on fire in the street and anyone attempting to put them out to stop their agony should be given a 5 year jail sentence, anyone caught on film interfearing with children or attempting to or actually succeeding planting a bomb in our city's should be immediately executed after the trial, no last meal, no asking for forgiveness from a priest, straight to the gallows or execution centre, this should be for crimes caught on camera where there is absolutely no doubt, fluck em, kill the Bstards.

 

[shanky887614]

on another note, the eu is trying to interfere with the us death penalty by not supplying them with the lethal injection, there just going to shoot them now in certain states instead.

to be fair its more humane to have a well placed shot kill, than suffocate to death after having an injection

 

[Guest77]

I would have no issue with a shot to the head myself, as long as we do not have to feed them and give them television and ipods for the rest of their lives then the shot to the head will do for me and other pro death penalty wishers, again though I would only agree to it where it is caught on film or the evidence is so overwhelming there is no doubt, but anyone who plans to plant bombs in the street to hurt innocents and those fluckers who rape children deserve to die not live.

 

[BES]

The long drop hanging method developed in britian by william marwood in the late 1800's is still the most humane way if done correctly it seperates 2nd and 3rd vertebre and breaks the spinal cord.
Think ive read enough about hanging in britian to rig the gallows myself and id have no problem pulling the lever on the two who killed lee rigby.

 

[Tiny Spark]

This is something I have done much reading on over the years due to various reasons.

However my personal oppinion is that it should be brought back for certain crimes.
Most that stick in my mind have allready been mentioned, Lee Rigby's killers, ISIS etc.

There is of course the 2 main arguments against it, Those being 1 that you could condemn a inocent person and 2 it does not deter criminals.
Some argue a 3rd about it being against "Human Rights" In my mind the whole HR contract becomes null and void when you deliberatly go out to kill a un-armed soldier on the streets for no good reason.
You no longer have the right to call yourself a Human and become something else entirely.

However in regards to the other 2 arguments I have the following oppinions.

1) Crimes should be proved beyond a reasonable doubt, In the past "criminals" could be beaten to confession and shoddy evidence falseified to "prove" their guilt.
With all the modern forensics and assets the Police (and other crime agencys) now have at their disposal this should no longer be a issue.

2) Again Historically speaking the death penalty did not deter people as in ancient times gone by the chances of actually getting found out or caught red handed were rather slim. Even when Stealing carried the death penalty it was common for pick pockets to steal from people gathered at executions!
Again due to the modern policing techniques etc this should not be a problem.
Most Murderers and Pedo's etc are now caught.
But lets face it the worst they get is a few years in a cosy cell and their name put on a register.

So in summary, Yes I think Terrorists, Pedo's and other scum balls on the face of the earth should be eradicated from it for the good of all man kind.

 

[RogertheBodger]

That's a very emotive argument which is trotted out by pro death penalty advocates but (hopefully) it's a situation I'll never have to face because I, nor anyone else, can realistically answer it. I think I'd prefer for the person to spend the rest of his or her life in prison rather than getting a quick release at the end of a rope but like I say, I can't guarantee I'd feel that way.
That said, I have read articles where the families of victims have said the same because it doesn't bring the person back. Imo it's not a punishment, it's revenge and I don't think revenge has a place in the criminal justice system.
To my way of thinking you either support the death penalty or you do not. You can't say that person A should hang for his crime but person B shouldn't and there have been too many miscarriages of justice for me to be comfortable with it

You must be a forgiving man Trev, to feel that way. I don’t think I could be the same if it was one of mine, but as you say, hopefully we will never know.

It’s an emotive argument yes, much more so for the thousands of relatives of victims, who I imagine would be mostly pro death penalty advocates themselves were the option to be given at trial, I can’t say I’ve read any articles in which the victim’s families have said that they would reject the death penalty if it were available, in these days of political correctness they are highly unlikely to appear in print or on TV saying ‘We really wanted the B…… Dead, it’s just not done. But in private?
The rights of the above should be the priority issue in this debate, people with real involvement, if they want ‘Revenge’ payback, justice, call it what you want, why should they not have it? Why should the rights of a killer be put first.

I can’t agree with you that people are either for or against, quite a few posters in this thread have implied that they would consider change under certain conditions, i.e. Conviction beyond ANY doubt for the killing of Children, or the abduction, rape and Murder of young women, acts of Terrorism etc. and I would put myself in that group.

Every crime brought to court is treated on it’s own merits, the circumstances, evidence, mitigating factors etc. The punishment should fit the crime. And some people would get the death sentence, some would not, think of O.J. and Pistorius, killers who got away with it.

 

[Adam W]

That's fine, that's not any form of problem, they are dead and out of circulation.... If you are under the ill found impression that it encourages others, they have already been well and truly indoctrinated it make's no difference whatsoever, so why would you invest millions keeping this scum alive in prison (life sentence) and possibly creating other problems during their incarceration??

Why give them what they want?