determine the age of existing rising main to flats

[mazamara]

Hi all, I am a leaseholder in a flat. The managing agent want to replace the electric rising main as they say it is over 50 years old (but I have been told elsewhere it is probably only 20 years old). They are going to charge me £thousands for changing it. They do not have any evidence of the date of installation at all.
my question is: How do I prove the age of the existing installation, please? would there be serial numbers on the existing pyro cable to prove this?
would an NICEIC have been issued? were NICEIC around 20+years ago? it is wired in mineral insulated which doesn't really age apparently.
There is no evidence of deterioration of existing installation. The only factors they give for substantiating the replacement is that it doesn't meet current regs & is "old".
I am determined not to get ripped off and perhaps with your help I am one step closer.
many thanks, and - be kind, i know nothing about electrics...

 

[westward10]

You are correct MI cables have excellent longevity and are very resilient. The only reason where they maybe subject to replacement is they have failed insulation, have suffered mechanical damage or they are no longer suffient for the current demand required from them. I would be asking for technical evidence to support their claims.

 

[snowhead]

Presumably it's potentially costing every leaseholder "£ thousands".
How many flats are there and how long / what size is the rising main?

I'm not fully up on Leaseholder / Managing agent legislation and rights but I would think every leaseholder has a right to the see the final detailed quote and importantly alternative quotes that were sought.
And most importantly if there is any connection to the contractor doing the work and the managing agent.

 

[bryanh]

Old is no reason to change pyro so get them to supply electrical report highlighting the reasons to change

 

[pc1966]

Just to repeat the above - pyro (MICC) cable is practically immortal. Short of physical damage or very poor installation allowing moisture in to a end gland it will last forever.

There may be reasons for a replacement if it is no longer capable of meeting the demands for power today compared to 40 years ago, etc, but there needs to be a proper technical report justifying the work. Once you get that you can post it on here with personal information redacted (location/names of customers and contractors) for comments and advice.

 

[UNG]

An MICC / pyro cable that is 50 years old is not a valid reason for changing it unless there are other mitigating circumstances that give rise to the electrical safety, even a cable with a low insulation resistance which is usually down to damp in the magnesium oxide insulation medium from a failed pot seal can in most circumstances be repaired by a skilled electrician familiar with MICC / pyro

Generally the only identification on an MICC / pyro cable is on the gland if it is pre the metric era it will have a 3 digit number to identify the cable size, post metric you will find as an example 4H25 which is a 4 core heavy duty cable with cores of 25mm csa

It is all to easy these days for an operative not familiar or skilled with MICC /pyro to not understand the longevity that the cable has or assess if there is a problem found whether all that is needed is simple repair to maintain the cables integrity

Working with MICC / pyro is a key skill that is unfortunately dying out and is very rarely taught now which I think is mainly down to it's cost because of it's high copper content

 

[pc1966]

Working with MICC / pyro is a key skill that is unfortunately dying out and is very rarely taught now which I think is mainly down to it's cost because of it's high copper content

Its not just the high cost of the cable, its the time it takes to install it compared to the likes of FP cables.

Of course MICC will outlast FP in all cases, including during a fire, but for most cases the alternatives are "good enough".

 

[UNG]

Its not just the high cost of the cable, its the time it takes to install it compared to the likes of FP cables.

You rarely see badly installed pyro but it is quite common to find FP badly installed and not clipped in accordance with the manufacturers instructions.

 

[pc1966]

You rarely see badly installed pyro but it is quite common to find FP badly installed and not clipped in accordance with the manufacturers instructions.

Yes, that reflects the skill & training for those who do MICC compared to the (usual) cheapest option for others throwing stuff up.

 

[mazamara]

Hi all, I am a leaseholder in a flat. The managing agent want to replace the electric rising main as they say it is over 50 years old (but I have been told elsewhere it is probably only 20 years old). They are going to charge me £thousands for changing it. They do not have any evidence of the date of installation at all.
my question is: How do I prove the age of the existing installation, please? would there be serial numbers on the existing pyro cable to prove this?
would an NICEIC have been issued? were NICEIC around 20+years ago? it is wired in mineral insulated which doesn't really age apparently.
There is no evidence of deterioration of existing installation. The only factors they give for substantiating the replacement is that it doesn't meet current regs & is "old".
I am determined not to get ripped off and perhaps with your help I am one step closer.
many thanks, and - be kind, i know nothing about electrics...

many thanks for your helpful replies.
You have filled me with confidence that I do have a case to contest the works .
The visual report states no visible damage & that cables are metric, they did no testing or investigation to establish the date of installation at all.
One resident in the block even remembers them replacing the rising main in the late 1990s so I see no reason why it needs replacing ! The total cost will be around £30k for 3 lots of communal mains. There are 3 stairways & 18 flats in all. Sounds a rip-off to me.
I think my first step will be to get my own survey/report done on it to contest the council's findings.
thanks again

 

[UNG]

You have filled me with confidence that I do have a case to contest the works .

I think you have more than reasonable grounds to contest the report

The visual report states no visible damage & that cables are metric, they did no testing or investigation to establish the date of installation at all.

So why have they deemed the replacement as being necessary

One resident in the block even remembers them replacing the rising main in the late 1990s so I see no reason why it needs replacing ! The total cost will be around £30k for 3 lots of communal mains. There are 3 stairways & 18 flats in all. Sounds a rip-off to me.

I know some councils have a 25 / 30 year policy of rewiring properties but that is a bit premature for the replacement of MICC cable
Are they proposing to replace like for like or are they proposing a different wiring method for the new submains

I think my first step will be to get my own survey/report done on it to contest the council's findings.
thanks again

I would suggest that you find an electrician who is familiar with MICC if you are looking to get your own survey done. The MICC cable possibly being over 50 years old is not a statement that really supports replacement, personally I know of a couple of places where MICC submains are installed that are around 70+ years old

MICC was first produced in 1932 and I would think some of that is still in use somewhere today