Different Testing Courses

[jones750]

Hi all,

I have my NVQ level 3, City and guilds 2330 and have been installing fire alarms through out my apprenticeship. Unfortunately the company i was working for went bump and i was out of the electrical game for about a year. I am starting at a new firm as a trainee engineer and they want me to get some sort of testing qualification, they understand i have not done a lot of testing but as it is a trainee position they are not to miverd about my experience.

the question is, all the works that need testing will be new install. The items needed to be tested will be light fittings, 3 phase motors, gas burners and pressure switches.

I have looked at the 2394 as this is suitable for the new installtions but i was wondering if there are any more specific courses aimed at what i will be testing.

sorry its long and thanks for answers.

Cheers guys

 

[D Skelton]

Start with your 2394, this is for initial verification, then go for your 2395 which is for periodic inspection and testing. You could do them seperately or together, doing them together will often work out cheaper and if you use a local college this will only set you back about £800 - £900 for them both.

 

[Engineer54]

If the company is paying for this training, then it's a complete no-brainer to sign-up for the complete 2394/95 which will then supposedly be equivalent to the older 2391.

If they are not paying, and took you on knowing your limitations as far as experience etc is concerned, they shouldn't be expecting you to fund this training out of your own pocket for the companies benefit...

 

[D Skelton]

If the company is paying for this training, then it's a complete no-brainer to sign-up for the complete 2394/95 which will then supposedly be equivalent to the older 2391.

There's no supposedly about it. It is equivalent to the 2391.

 

[jones750]

The company is paying so I will put it too them, thanks for the advice. The company is a small company so I dont think they will put me through the 2395 as all the works that will be tested will be new installations.

 

[D Skelton]

If they won't then offer to stump up the extra £150 to do the 2395. It's pointless having one without the other. If you don't then you'll have to shell out £600 to do the 2395 at some point in the future.

 

[PEG]

Fully agree with the above. Think not only of the here and now,think of YOUR future in the industry,and how many doors you want to open... personally speaking,the quals i have had the best advantage from,are the ones that i deliberated,whinged and spent on when other things looked more fun...ask them to fund the job,and,if they delay,sort it yourself. It will ALWAYS benefit you.

 

[Engineer54]

There's no supposedly about it. It is equivalent to the 2391.

Is it i don't know ?? What i do know is that i've never come across, or know of a single Successful C&G course that had been changed, to equal that of which it was replacing, let alone bettering!!

So if you're right, it'll be a first!! lol!!

 

[D Skelton]

I've offered on plenty of occasions to send you past papers from both to compare but you ignore me every time. I'm not having a go but the whole 'the new ones aint as good as the old ones' thing is getting tiresome now. IMHO the 2357 as a core qualification outshines the 2330 for example as more has been added into the syllabus! And although a rip off, I personally think the new T&I quals are slightly harder than the old. That said, it is the opinion of many that the 2330 was a dumbed down version of the old 2360. In reality, the problem has never been the actual qualifications or the things that they teach you, their structure will always change slightly, it is the way they are taught that has changed. The curriculam has devolved to cater for all rather than being selective, and in a lot of cases now, you'll find people dragged through qualifications who 20 years ago wouldn't have even made it through the first sift of college applications.

The industry is being devalued, that is something which we both wholeheartedly agree on, but it's not the qualifications that are the problem (forgetting the DI courses for a moment), it is the manner in which they are taught.

You still need the same level of knowledge to pass the 2394 and 2395 together as you did the 2391, the national average pass percentage hasn't changed either. All that has changed in reality is that it has become more expensive and there are now slightly shorter, but more assessments of equal difficulty to complete.

 

[Engineer54]

I've offered on plenty of occasions to send you past papers from both to compare but you ignore me every time. I'm not having a go but the whole 'the new ones aint as good as the old ones' thing is getting tiresome now. IMHO the 2357 as a core qualification outshines the 2330 for example as more has been added into the syllabus! And although a rip off, I personally think the new T&I quals are slightly harder than the old. That said, it is the opinion of many that the 2330 was a dumbed down version of the old 2360. In reality, the problem has never been the actual qualifications or the things that they teach you, their structure will always change slightly, it is the way they are taught that has changed. The curriculam has devolved to cater for all rather than being selective, and in a lot of cases now, you'll find people dragged through qualifications who 20 years ago wouldn't have even made it through the first sift of college applications.

The industry is being devalued, that is something which we both wholeheartedly agree on, but it's not the qualifications that are the problem (forgetting the DI courses for a moment), it is the manner in which they are taught.

You still need the same level of knowledge to pass the 2394 and 2395 together as you did the 2391, the national average pass percentage hasn't changed either. All that has changed in reality is that it has become more expensive and there are now slightly shorter, but more assessments of equal difficulty to complete.

First off, i was under the impression that 2365 Lv 3 is the replacement for 2330 Lv 3, so how come we now have two replacement qualification courses (eg 2357). These C&G numbers just get's more and more confusing, as far as i'm concerned.

Tiresome to you it maybe, but please don't try and compare courses and exam papers of latter years, (especially when for arguments sake, i was taking mine) with present day courses and exams, there is just no comparison at all. No multiple choice questions in my day. No individual credits numbers making up your final pass credit number. Every question, required a full and detailed answer, and where calculation was needed you needed to show those calculations, they actually formed part of exam point score. You had to ''know the answers'' to a questions in those days or you failed... Final exams covered the whole course, that was in those days, 3 to 4 years in most cases, Not just what you had learnt in the last six weeks or whatever with this new ''Credit'' based system.... Oh, and early on, NO Calculators allowed into the exam room, and it goes without question, that there was no such thing as an ''Open Book'' exam!!

Yes i agree that many of todays students shouldn't even be on a Lv 3 course, and probably why the courses themselves are being numbed down as well as the exams... Dragging those people through exams serves little purpose, if they don't fully understand what they are doing and why!! If anything, adds to the general dumbing down of the industry as a whole.

I'll still maintain, that ''if'' (and i hope that it is) the 2394/95 is equal to that of the 2391, it'll be a ''First'' for a very long time for the C&G institute. It's a crying shame that the old and established C&G institute has elected to follow the money train instead of keeping to the technical training and certification excellence that it once stood for...

Sorry if i have ignored your offer or offers, perhaps i misunderstood that you were serious!! ...lol!!
You can by all means send me exam papers to compare, (might even use them with the students i'm mentoring at the moment from the local college here) PM me, and i'll send you my email address.

 

[D Skelton]

First off, i was under the impression that 2365 Lv 3 is the replacement for 2330 Lv 3, so how come we now have two replacement qualification courses (eg 2357). These C&G numbers just get's more and more confusing, as far as i'm concerned.

Sorry, you're right. The 2365 makes up the knowledge units of the 2357 which is the equivalent of the old 2330 and 2356 combined.

Tiresome to you it maybe, but please don't try and compare courses and exam papers of latter years, (especially when for arguments sake, i was taking mine) with present day courses and exams, there is just no comparison at all.

Of course there is a comparison, we are all taught the same thing. Like I said, it is not the qualifications that have changed, it is the way they are taught. I suppose also it is the way they are assessed to a small degree.

No multiple choice questions in my day.

Multiple choice are additional to written exams now, not replacements.

No individual credits numbers making up your final pass credit number.

Not quite sure what you mean here, you do your exams at the end of year two and at the end of year three? Same as always right?

Every question, required a full and detailed answer, and where calculation was needed you needed to show those calculations, they actually formed part of exam point score.

Exactly the same now.

You had to ''know the answers'' to a questions in those days or you failed

It's the same now, the only difference is that you get an infinite amount of chances to re-sit if you fail instead of one.

Final exams covered the whole course, that was in those days

They do now too.

Oh, and early on, NO Calculators allowed into the exam room

Makes no difference to me, we're not sitting maths exams, we're sitting electrical exams. Who cares if you're using a calculator to add a few numbers up or a piece of paper?

and it goes without question, that there was no such thing as an ''Open Book'' exam!!

No such thing now either, the only open book C&G exam I can think of is the 2382.

Yes i agree that many of todays students shouldn't even be on a Lv 3 course, and probably why the courses themselves are being numbed down as well as the exams... Dragging those people through exams serves little purpose, if they don't fully understand what they are doing and why!! If anything, adds to the general dumbing down of the industry as a whole.

I'll still maintain, that ''if'' (and i hope that it is) the 2394/95 is equal to that of the 2391, it'll be a ''First'' for a very long time for the C&G institute.

Well it is, I assure you, so give it a rest. Anyway, is it really a first? I'm looking through the project content for the new 2396 and it sure as hell looks more in depth than the old 2391-20!

It's a crying shame that the old and established C&G institute has elected to follow the money train instead of keeping to the technical training and certification excellence that it once stood for...

Welcome to capitalist Britain!

Sorry if i have ignored your offer or offers, perhaps i misunderstood that you were serious!! ...lol!!
You can by all means send me exam papers to compare, (might even use them with the students i'm mentoring at the moment from the local college here) PM me, and i'll send you my email address.

Will do

 

[Engineer54]

Sorry, you're right. The 2365 makes up the knowledge units of the 2357 which is the equivalent of the old 2330 and 2356 combined.

So whats the difference between the 2365/NVQ L3 and the 2357/NVQ L3?? I genuinely can't make out the difference between them!!

Of course there is a comparison, we are all taught the same thing. Like I said, it is not the qualifications that have changed, it is the way they are taught. I suppose also it is the way they are assessed to a small degree.

Sorry, but there just isn't, apart from anything else the content and depth has changed beyond all recognition...


Multiple choice are additional to written exams now, not replacements.

Additional?? Or do you mean replacing the number of written exam questions??


Not quite sure what you mean here, you do your exams at the end of year two and at the end of year three? Same as always right?

Think you'll find most C&G core exams are based around credit tests for each section with the total amount of credits making up a pass requirement Final exam content as we know them, are nothing like today. not from what has been explained to me anyway...


Exactly the same now.

Maybe, i hope so!!


It's the same now, the only difference is that you get an infinite amount of chances to re-sit if you fail instead of one.

Something like the Nappit 2391 exam then, ....can't fail?? And that's an improvement?? lol!!


They do now too.

I don't think they do, again not from what i've been told by relatively recent students...


Makes no difference to me, we're not sitting maths exams, we're sitting electrical exams. Who cares if you're using a calculator to add a few numbers up or a piece of paper?

Rubbish, ...If you're crap at Maths, you are not going to get very far with electrical calculations, it's not just a bit of adding up and subtraction...


No such thing now either, the only open book C&G exam I can think of is the 2382

There are a few C&G exams out there that have ''Open Book'' elements as well as closed book elements.


Well it is, I assure you, so give it a rest. Anyway, is it really a first? I'm looking through the project content for the new 2396 and it sure as hell looks more in depth than the old 2391-20!

I'll give it a rest as you put it, when i'm convinced!! As for the 2396, a Lv 4 it aint!! lol!! How anyone can compare a 2 year HNC course with a 60 day supplementary electricians course is beyond me...

Welcome to capitalist Britain!

Can't get any more Capitalist than China, ...believe me!! ...lol!!



Will do

It would be great to put this to the test, having new students that have completed their college electrical courses, and instead of sitting current finals, they sit those of 30/40 years ago, under the same conditions. I am confident the pass rate would be devastating for most of those present day students!!

 

[D Skelton]

It would be great to put this to the test, having new students that have completed their college electrical courses, and instead of sitting current finals, they sit those of 30/40 years ago, under the same conditions. I am confident the pass rate would be devastating for most of those present day students!!

This has got more to do with the fact that any old chump can sign up to an electrical qual now and get dragged through it! Years ago you had to be at a certain level of maths and english before you could even start and even then, if your attendance was crap or you were simply struggling to grasp electrical concepts you started failing exams and were told to go on your merry way!

Like I said, the course content hasn't changed much, it is the curriculum that has changed. I count myself lucky as in my final year I had a bloody excellent tutor who really knew his stuff! The stuff I learned at college won't be far different from the stuff you learned. Give me the same final exams you had and I'm 100% confident I'd pass it with flying colours!

With regards to the calculator thing, it makes no odds whether you work a sum out on paper or elecronically, as long as you know the structure of the calculation and how to manipulate figures in order to achieve results (transposition, rounding up/down, trigonometry etc...) then what does it matter. If you're crap at maths it isn't going to make one jot of difference if you can use a calculator, coz you're not going to understand the processes in the first place!

It isn't the method you use to add the numbers up that is important, it is knowing why you are doing so.

With regards to the multiple choice exams, I think when I did my qualification I did about four or five? I still did a zillion written assessments though!! About three or four for each unit and then another three or four final exams which covered everything.

The difference between the 2365 and the 2357 is only that the 2357 is made up of the 2365, the NVQ3 and the AM2. In short, the 2365 is PART OF the 2357, which is an all encompassing qualification. Before you had the 2330, the 2356 NVQ3 and the AM2, all seperate quals. Now you have the 2357, one qual which includes everything all in one number.

 

[happysteve]

It would be great to put this to the test, having new students that have completed their college electrical courses, and instead of sitting current finals, they sit those of 30/40 years ago, under the same conditions. I am confident the pass rate would be devastating for most of those present day students!!

You're on.

I'll be finishing my 2365 level 3 come September/October. Send me a 2330 (or summat even older) exam then and I'll give it a crack. (I'm not your typical student, mind - but I'll give an honest perspective on it, as I've nowt to prove either way).

 

[Engineer54]

Why would you think i still have exam papers from 40 years ago?? I can't even remember the last time i laid eyes on any of my C&G qualifications, which also included maintenance biased equivalents of 2360, though i can't recall the relevant numbers. I think i have around 7 or 8 C&G qualifications all told, of one type or another. lol!!

Funnily enough i've been talking to our Mechanical Engineer yesterday, about this very thing.... He is of the same or similar opinion as myself, in that the quality and standards of all standard and higher education has fallen over the years. He pointed out, the number of school GCSE passes get higher every year, and it has nothing to do with improved education, but rather the lowering of pass standards...

So you think you would pass an older based exam with flying colours, ...interesting!! I think you may struggle with the flying colours bit and maybe even attaining the pass mark criteria, still i admire your confidence!! lol!! I beg to differ, calculators can make a BIG difference to the outcome of any math based trade exam.

Think it was 1999 that all the higher educational qualifications were subject to major changes, not to better them but to make them easier to attain. Not sure if that included trade qualifications such as C&G, but it did include the ONC/D -HNC/D courses and the various B Tech courses. Since that time, many of the engineering subject qualifications, carry less weight than those attained prior to 1999. Professional Institutes like ITE and CIBSE want more from a Eng/Bsc Degree in the way of distinctions etc and no longer allow past equivalents, to post 1999 qualifications for consideration as part of C Eng enrollment.


I'll stick with and by what i wholeheartedly believe, and that is the standards of college electrical education and C&G courses in this day and age, are woefully lacking those of 30/40 years ago, end of. Hell, as my colleague pointed out yesterday, every man and his dog is aware of the yearly exam pass scam in the UK...