Dodgy EICR (Consumer)

[Strima]

Here it is..
View attachment 63246

I see several issues but none that would immediately warrant a C2.

Depending on the installation method for the fridge circuit it would attract a C3 for lack of additional (30mA RCD protection) for a socket-outlet.

Mixed manufacturers of devices within the DB would also be a C3 unless signs of thermal damage, arcing, poor IP rating etc which would be a C2 IMHO.

The socket-outlets on a 16 amp circuit may be of concern depending upon the cable installation method, for example if it is run in conduit the cable is only rated for 14.5 amps, this would require further investigation. This applies if it is indeed run in 1.5mm, I suspect that's a typo.

Lack of discrimination in case of fault is the biggest worry for me as a fault would trip out everything, not good if it plunges you into darkness at the critical moment of tea making.

All of these issues are easily fixed, although the DB is useable I would be leaning more to replacing with a full RCBO unit, this would fix the discrimination, mixed manufacturer and any IP rating problems easily.

What was the problem in the bathroom that's mentioned on the report?

 

[UNG]

The answer is, not willingly.
The government introduced part P of the building regulations back in 2005 which required certain types of electrical work carried out in domestic dwellings to be notified to the the local building control department.
The government arranged for electricians involved in this type of work to be able to self certify their own work as compliant with part P, and to notify building control. The only way an electrician could self certify and notify was through the Competent Person Schemes, several of which were set up by the government. These schemes included the likes of NICEIC and Napit etc.
So scheme membership was pretty much enforced on electricians working in the domestic field. (Another option available was/is to have the householder notify building control directly, which normally involves a large fee, so it would be more cost effective to use a registered electrician).

None of the CP schemes were actualy set up by the government, The big two NICEIC and NAPIT were already in existence before the Part P legislation, the NIC dates back to 1956, NAPIT set up in 1992, the others saw an opportunity to make a quick buck and set up schemes that were cheaper option and ained approval from the government body that oversees the CP scheme providers, over the last few years we have seen the big two buy up the smaller schemes to strengthen their stranglehold on the market.
I find it strange that the only 2 prosecutions I know of personally since Part P notification became law were by the HMRC

 

[mattg4321]

That report is a shambles.

In addition to everything else that has been mentioned, all the Zs results are the same for each circuit and every circuit is a ring final according to the schedule of test results. It’s clearly just been completely made up. Visual test only imo. I could’ve given you a more accurate report after 5 minutes in the property.

Edit. Also IR test voltage 200v. That’s not even an approved voltage to test IR at, nor is it even possible on a lot (most/all?) test equipment.

 

[Vortigern]

And speaking of labels the guy doing the EICR failed to put on a required label, being when it was inspected and date of the next inspection.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

I wonder if the type of person to complete an EICR like this ever feels remorse, guilt or perhaps regret afterwards or later on in life. A report is carried out to identify dangerous electrical issues that could end up killing someone. I just don't get it.

I have to believe that the majority of electricians realise the importance of the work they do. I think we see more crappy EICR's on here because that's what people come on here for, i.e. they are suspicious of the EICR's they have had carried out.

Sorry for not answering your questions OP, although it sounds like you now have the answers and are preparing for battle.

 

[Dave OCD]

Another shambolic and atrocious EICR, I'm afraid that around 70% of the ones I see these days are of a similar standard, it seems a popular tactic to invent as many C2s as possible which can all be cured by a new CU, of course the made up test results will just be transferred to the EIC saving time and increasing profits at the same time. Although one recent 'post EICR' quote sent to me for comments for an 8 way RCBO board and replacement bathroom light also included supply of a Minor Works cert upon completion ?! And all for the bargain price of £850 + VAT. ? This was from a NA### member firm, but anyway I've got the job now, it'll be done right for a lot less than £1020 !!

 

[Zerax]

I wonder if the type of person to complete an EICR like this ever feels remorse, guilt or perhaps regret afterwards or later on in life. A report is carried out to identify dangerous electrical issues that could end up killing someone. I just don't get it.

It's because the whole EICR system is seen as either a box ticking exercise or as a sales tool to increase business. Only when we see people kicked out of competent persons schemes or prosecuted/deported will we see an increase in the standard.

At the risk of sounding old... this is all part of the modern world... certificates are issued for all sorts of things... and the vast majority of them mean nothing !!

It's the same with qualifications... within a few years every school leaver will be given grade As !

 

[GBDamo]

It's because the whole EICR system is seen as either a box ticking exercise or as a sales tool to increase business. Only when we see people kicked out of competent persons schemes or prosecuted/deported will we see an increase in the standard.

At the risk of sounding old... this is all part of the modern world... certificates are issued for all sorts of things... and the vast majority of them mean nothing !!

It's the same with qualifications... within a few years every school leaver will be given grade As !

The modern business model seems to be to insert yourself between a product and a market and, with the help of the government, regulate the supply of the product and mandate its supply.

The regulation was, and still is, unnecessary, nobody wants it, nobody is interested in implementation.

The only interested party is the middle man, and he's only interested in collecting the fees

 

[pc1966]

While that CU looks a bit of a mess, I don't see a C" for the mix of devices as no sign of thermal stress and all controls operate in the same direction.

For some bizarre reason some of the schemes have their own guidance, even though they are on the board of the "best practice guides" which cover inspection in #4 from here:

https://www.----------------------------/professional-resources/best-practice-guides/

If you are getting an EICR done and have even the smallest interest in the process and reasoning then BPG #4 is well worth reading and a voice of sanity in what sadly is becoming a loss-leading scam by the big players.

 

[JH4Jill]

That report is a shambles.

In addition to everything else that has been mentioned, all the Zs results are the same for each circuit and every circuit is a ring final according to the schedule of test results. It’s clearly just been completely made up. Visual test only imo. I could’ve given you a more accurate report after 5 minutes in the property.

Edit. Also IR test voltage 200v. That’s not even an approved voltage to test IR at, nor is it even possible on a lot (most/all?) test equipment.

Thank you! I really appreciate your time and your comments. Jill

 

[JH4Jill]

Here is the full story. I have called the company ‘Noname’ but many Londoners would be able to guess who they are. When I go to the journalists and consumer champions with this, I will be naming names. I have reported them to Trading Standards and Westminster Building Control.

....

I have recently had an experience with an electrician who was not fully qualified in the UK, and who was sent out by a maintenance firm who are NICEIC Affiliated. The work carried out did not resolve the cause of the problem and resulted in unnecessary and unprofessional results. I then needed the NICEIC to mediate.
The maintenance firm I used is Noname. They appear to rely on emergency callouts and charge £88 per hour plus VAT. In my case, they created unnecessary work and therefore additional hours for themselves.
I had the unfortunate experience of dealing with them when my tenant rang them on an emergency callout to my London flat because a circuit kept tripping and the boiler did not work.
Noname sent a charming young Australian ‘electrician’, who turned out to be unqualified in the UK. This gentleman spent some considerable time attempting to diagnose the problem and came up with a solution that not only failed to identify the cause of the problem, it then created hours of unnecessary work.
It turned out that the boiler, having been serviced only two weeks previously, had developed a loose electrical connection. This is something that a competent and qualified electrician should have been able to identify and fix in ten minutes. However, this Australian ‘electrician’ embarked on an elaborate new wiring scheme instead.
As you may know, responsible landlords (I am one, although I only rent out one property) are legally obliged to ensure our electrics are safe and up to date and now there is a requirement for an EICR, a report that checks your electrical installation to give your tenants peace of mind. So, since this ‘electrician’ was there anyway, I asked him to do an EICR, not realising that he was unqualified.
The office at Noname was friendly and helpful and took a card payment of £312 for the EICR. The Australian said he would carry out the report inspection before he did the wiring work to sort out the circuit (which seemed a bit odd to me, but he was most convincing).
I was unable to visit my property as I was abroad, but, by the end of the day, I had been charged £312 for the EICR report on my card and my tenant was asked to pay £501 on his. At the end of day two, the Australian demanded a further £698 which I refused to pay until I had seen the invoice. He signed off his own work and left my tenants without central heating and with a replacement wall socket which used to work but now didn’t.
So, almost £1200 later, not including the price of the EICR, the Australian hadn’t fixed the problem and he had created a new one.
I was already beginning to smell a rat and I started to ask questions. It turned out the Australian had some vague Australian qualifications which, despite my request, Noname did not send me. It appears that this gentleman had done a three-day City & Guilds course in the UK. He had only been in the UK since August 2020.

The Australian had messed up my electrical installation AFTER having done the EICR, so the report was never going to be worth the paper it was written on. The trunking he installed was about as incongruous as it could possibly be.
The EICR Report turned up a few days later. It was frightening how ‘potentially dangerous’ my electrical installation was. It was full of C2 codes. According to the Australian, I needed a new consumer unit. As soon as I could get to my property (the November lockdown had intervened), I had another, independent and fully qualified electrician check the report (not an NICEIC electrician). The C2 codes turned out to be unnecessary. My electrical installation was absolutely fine as I had had it upgraded a few years ago. There was nothing unsafe about it and all that was needed was for me to upgrade some bathroom lights.
However, none of this was before I had turned to the NICEIC. I had spent time filling out their complaints form. They said they would not be involved in the financial side of any dispute. They were only interested in getting the problem solved. I asked them for an independent check on my system. They replied only that I MUST have the contractor back who did the work so it could be remedied by them. Also, I MUST NOT change the work in any way. They point blank refused to mediate.
The NICEIC did, however, concede that there were ‘issues’ with the EICR Report but, again, suggested I had the contractor back to remedy them.
I could not agree to expose myself to further incompetence, dishonesty and outrageous prices. Noname had taken £501 from my former tenant and formally invoiced him for £637.20, which he of course refuses to pay and so do I. Noname is pursuing my tenant relentlessly. Fortunately for the tenant, he was on secondment in the UK and is no longer in the country. So instead, Noname are threatening me with legal action for an invoice which is not in my name. I am trying to get my money back from them for the invalid EICR and they are refusing to refund me.
It also turned out that the Australian’s elaborate wiring scheme was illegal. This was confirmed when an independent electrician, affiliated to a different professional trade association, came to look at the problem. He was astonished that the NICEIC were treating this case so lightly.
This is a sad state of affairs. We need to be confident that electricians, whether working on their own account or for general maintenance companies, are qualified and competent.
We are talking ELECTRICS here. They can be dangerous. Has Grenfell Tower taught us nothing?
My recommendation:
Think twice before using NICEIC affiliated electricians and if you do, ensure you check their qualifications thoroughly.

The NICEIC appear to be only interested in taking subscriptions. They seem to be disinterested in the quality of the workmanship of their members, nor for the safety of the general public. If my case is typical, it appears that NICEIC members may be unqualified and member companies are apparently able to send out unqualified operatives.
My further recommendation is not to trust Noname’good reviews on Trustpilot. On examination, the positive ones seem to have been written by the same person.

I have been really blown away by all your comments and help. Thank you. One thing that none of you commented on was the price per hour Noname charge. Are any of you charging as much as £88 + VAT? For London, what is a reasonable rate for a competent electrician.

 

[telectrix]

round here £40/hour is average. London ?? when you add congestion charges, parking charges and the fact that down south prices are high anyway, £88 is not too far out. i know of 1 company charges over £200

 

[mattg4321]

£88+vat an hour sounds relatively cheap (depending on exact location/congestion charge/parking etc) for an hours job in London. Not so cheap if it was charged at that rate for a whole day.

 

[Zerax]

Are any of you charging as much as £88 + VAT? For London, what is a reasonable rate for a competent electrician.

I'm not London based anymore... so I don't charge anywhere near that. The pricing model for London will generally be "whatever we can get away with". What makes it an expensive place to operate in is the parking cost (both per minute + penalties) and the travel time. £88+vat does not seem particularly 'outrageous' to me... just 'extortionate'.

 

[UNG]

Here is the full story. I have called the company ‘Noname’ but many Londoners would be able to guess who they are. When I go to the journalists and consumer champions with this, I will be naming names. I have reported them to Trading Standards and Westminster Building Control.

....

I have recently had an experience with an electrician who was not fully qualified in the UK, and who was sent out by a maintenance firm who are NICEIC Affiliated. The work carried out did not resolve the cause of the problem and resulted in unnecessary and unprofessional results. I then needed the NICEIC to mediate.
The maintenance firm I used is Noname. They appear to rely on emergency callouts and charge £88 per hour plus VAT. In my case, they created unnecessary work and therefore additional hours for themselves.
I had the unfortunate experience of dealing with them when my tenant rang them on an emergency callout to my London flat because a circuit kept tripping and the boiler did not work.
Noname sent a charming young Australian ‘electrician’, who turned out to be unqualified in the UK. This gentleman spent some considerable time attempting to diagnose the problem and came up with a solution that not only failed to identify the cause of the problem, it then created hours of unnecessary work.
It turned out that the boiler, having been serviced only two weeks previously, had developed a loose electrical connection. This is something that a competent and qualified electrician should have been able to identify and fix in ten minutes. However, this Australian ‘electrician’ embarked on an elaborate new wiring scheme instead.
As you may know, responsible landlords (I am one, although I only rent out one property) are legally obliged to ensure our electrics are safe and up to date and now there is a requirement for an EICR, a report that checks your electrical installation to give your tenants peace of mind. So, since this ‘electrician’ was there anyway, I asked him to do an EICR, not realising that he was unqualified.
The office at Noname was friendly and helpful and took a card payment of £312 for the EICR. The Australian said he would carry out the report inspection before he did the wiring work to sort out the circuit (which seemed a bit odd to me, but he was most convincing).
I was unable to visit my property as I was abroad, but, by the end of the day, I had been charged £312 for the EICR report on my card and my tenant was asked to pay £501 on his. At the end of day two, the Australian demanded a further £698 which I refused to pay until I had seen the invoice. He signed off his own work and left my tenants without central heating and with a replacement wall socket which used to work but now didn’t.
So, almost £1200 later, not including the price of the EICR, the Australian hadn’t fixed the problem and he had created a new one.
I was already beginning to smell a rat and I started to ask questions. It turned out the Australian had some vague Australian qualifications which, despite my request, Noname did not send me. It appears that this gentleman had done a three-day City & Guilds course in the UK. He had only been in the UK since August 2020.

The Australian had messed up my electrical installation AFTER having done the EICR, so the report was never going to be worth the paper it was written on. The trunking he installed was about as incongruous as it could possibly be.
The EICR Report turned up a few days later. It was frightening how ‘potentially dangerous’ my electrical installation was. It was full of C2 codes. According to the Australian, I needed a new consumer unit. As soon as I could get to my property (the November lockdown had intervened), I had another, independent and fully qualified electrician check the report (not an NICEIC electrician). The C2 codes turned out to be unnecessary. My electrical installation was absolutely fine as I had had it upgraded a few years ago. There was nothing unsafe about it and all that was needed was for me to upgrade some bathroom lights.
However, none of this was before I had turned to the NICEIC. I had spent time filling out their complaints form. They said they would not be involved in the financial side of any dispute. They were only interested in getting the problem solved. I asked them for an independent check on my system. They replied only that I MUST have the contractor back who did the work so it could be remedied by them. Also, I MUST NOT change the work in any way. They point blank refused to mediate.
The NICEIC did, however, concede that there were ‘issues’ with the EICR Report but, again, suggested I had the contractor back to remedy them.
I could not agree to expose myself to further incompetence, dishonesty and outrageous prices. Noname had taken £501 from my former tenant and formally invoiced him for £637.20, which he of course refuses to pay and so do I. Noname is pursuing my tenant relentlessly. Fortunately for the tenant, he was on secondment in the UK and is no longer in the country. So instead, Noname are threatening me with legal action for an invoice which is not in my name. I am trying to get my money back from them for the invalid EICR and they are refusing to refund me.
It also turned out that the Australian’s elaborate wiring scheme was illegal. This was confirmed when an independent electrician, affiliated to a different professional trade association, came to look at the problem. He was astonished that the NICEIC were treating this case so lightly.
This is a sad state of affairs. We need to be confident that electricians, whether working on their own account or for general maintenance companies, are qualified and competent.
We are talking ELECTRICS here. They can be dangerous. Has Grenfell Tower taught us nothing?
My recommendation:
Think twice before using NICEIC affiliated electricians and if you do, ensure you check their qualifications thoroughly.

The NICEIC appear to be only interested in taking subscriptions. They seem to be disinterested in the quality of the workmanship of their members, nor for the safety of the general public. If my case is typical, it appears that NICEIC members may be unqualified and member companies are apparently able to send out unqualified operatives.
My further recommendation is not to trust Noname’good reviews on Trustpilot. On examination, the positive ones seem to have been written by the same person.

It would be interesting to see how some of these "media consumer champions" (Watchdog, Rip of Britain, Which ) would handle and respond to your experience when they always peddle and promote the use an NICEIC electricians as some sort of reassurance

It's because the whole EICR system is seen as either a box ticking exercise or as a sales tool to increase business. Only when we see people kicked out of competent persons schemes or prosecuted/deported will we see an increase in the standard.

At the risk of sounding old... this is all part of the modern world... certificates are issued for all sorts of things... and the vast majority of them mean nothing !!

It's the same with qualifications... within a few years every school leaver will be given grade As !

The fact that competent doesn't necessarily mean skilled is where all these schemes fall short,
The schemes and primarily the NICEIC rely on the media promoting the myth that they are the guardians of finding a qualified electrician to carry out work to a high standard, when the reality is totally different

The whole industry has radically changed in the last 15 years people believe a regs exam and a 2391 ticket is all they need to hit the road and do EICR's and it's all backed up by these so called competent persons schemes as we plummet to the bottom

IMO the reason the NICEIC resist complaints is it upsets their ISO 9000 quality assurance and puts a black mark in their records as in most of the QA systems there should be no complaints

The modern business model seems to be to insert yourself between a product and a market and, with the help of the government, regulate the supply of the product and mandate its supply.

The regulation was, and still is, unnecessary, nobody wants it, nobody is interested in implementation.

The only interested party is the middle man, and he's only interested in collecting the fees

Since 2005 the industry seems to have spawned a lot of parasitic baggage that seems to run the show without any regulation and no one to answer to.

I was recently looking into the competent person scheme regulation and there doesn't seem to be any formal procedure for raising a complaint about a CPS provider with the government dept concerned or the people they appointed to oversee and approve the CP schemes