Dodgy EICR (Consumer)

[Strima]

IMO the reason the NICEIC resist complaints is it upsets their ISO 9000 quality assurance and puts a black mark in their records as in most of the QA systems there should be no complaints

This is where a lot of ISO accredited companies fall down, they believe complaints will leave a black mark against them.

Having met several auditors and been involved in the process it's how you act on your complaints, not that you receive any.

ISO is about process, I would actually be more suspicious of companies with no complaints as either they are really good and don't make mistakes or actually cover them up...

 

[UNG]

This is where a lot of ISO accredited companies fall down, they believe complaints will leave a black mark against them.

Having met several auditors and been involved in the process it's how you act on your complaints, not that you receive any.

ISO is about process, I would actually be more suspicious of companies with no complaints as either they are really good and don't make mistakes or actually cover them up...

ISO 9000 / BS5750 led a lot of companies up the garden path to some utopia that has never existed, quality assurance was totally the wrong name for it and some of those that went through the mill to gain recognition thought they were turning out a quality product when all it was about was turning out a product within the parameters laid down in their manual

 

[Zerax]

ISO 9000 / BS5750 led a lot of companies up the garden path to some utopia that has never existed, quality assurance was totally the wrong name for it and some of those that went through the mill to gain recognition thought they were turning out a quality product when all it was about was turning out a product within the parameters laid down in their manual

Having been involved with setting up ISO9000 'systems' I agree... it's largely a charade.

 

[John clark]

If the original electrician is registered with NICEIC it may be as a domestic installer only, which meanss he may not be able to cary out EICRs under the scheme rules (basically using their certification),however that does not preclude him from carrying out EICRs under his own banner ,using his own PI insurance if he has the prerequisite qualifications (C&G2391) I think it’s unlikely that he is unqualified as membership hinges on certain basic qualifications, more likely he doesn't have EICRs as part of his scheme membership.

I thought that any competent person can carry out an eicr and dose not have to be a qualified electrician.

 

[loz2754]

I thought that any competent person can carry out an eicr and dose not have to be a qualified electrician.

Technically true, but it depends on who is ordering the EICR. Letting agents, for example, will likely only choose someone who is on a list such as the NICEIC list.
And as has been mentioned, a much higher level of competency is demanded when carrying out an EICR. Knowing how to install to the regulations is one thing - being able to use all of one's senses, skills and experience to inspect and test an installation which may have undergone many changes (good and horribly bad) over several years, is quite another.

 

[Rutger]

Another shambolic and atrocious EICR, I'm afraid that around 70% of the ones I see these days are of a similar standard, it seems a popular tactic to invent as many C2s as possible which can all be cured by a new CU, of course the made up test results will just be transferred to the EIC saving time and increasing profits at the same time. Although one recent 'post EICR' quote sent to me for comments for an 8 way RCBO board and replacement bathroom light also included supply of a Minor Works cert upon completion ?! And all for the bargain price of £850 + VAT. ? This was from a NA### member firm, but anyway I've got the job now, it'll be done right for a lot less than £1020 !!

You're not based in London are you? Which electrician did you use in the end? And how did you find him? I could do with a fair electrician to fit a rcbo consumer unit and bring my flat to an eicr pass. I ve been variously quoted £750 inc and £650ex vat including an eicr test. The quotes were based on prior vis inspections. Are these prices unreasonable. They seem quite expensive to me.

 

[littlespark]

You're not based in London are you? Which electrician did you use in the end? And how did you find him? I could do with a fair electrician to fit a rcbo consumer unit and bring my flat to an eicr pass. I ve been variously quoted £750 inc and £650ex vat including an eicr test. The quotes were based on prior vis inspections. Are these prices unreasonable. They seem quite expensive to me.

For London, and what’s been said before, that’s not bad. A portion of that quote will be materials, so at the aforementioned £88 per hour, he’s maybe falling short on the number of hours he’s going to take.

 

[Rutger]

For London, and what’s been said before, that’s not bad. A portion of that quote will be materials, so at the aforementioned £88 per hour, he’s maybe falling short on the number of hours he’s going to take

Well i stand informed :-/, thankyou.
There are 2 different electricians, both of which are experienced and i feel, competent, although one speaks in technical gobbledegook and " doesn't have time to educate me".
I'm trying negotiate with the 2nd buts hes avoiding me. I guess he reckons time will pressure me into accepting his orig quote.

I estimate materials metal cons unit ~£50, rcbo and fuses £5x10 (seen online). Call it £150inc vat + getting it The rest is labour. So that works out at £66/ circuit to unscrew a cable from one unit and screw into another, test their and say 12 sockets continuity, mark up a form, email it to me.

The problem.with the fellow's quote is what i want it a clear EICR form in my hand, that is one done with necessary corrections. We both expect any extra work if any to be minor, but you never know. His quote is to fit the consumer unit and do the test. That is if he id any additional problems on the form it goes and an estate agent will want it corrected and restested, according circulating rumours.

As hes not communicating now, i'm left in a difficult. Accept and leave myself open to ransom. Refuse and potentially go through similar with another electrician.

Its seems theres no standard of practice. Thats not to say either of electricians who've quoted are dodgy. But i the punter am having to go through a system of what ought to fundamentals in supply if a service, but are turning into sticking points. Perhaps there should be a common standard of customer service, overseen by BEIS or the Dept for Energy. That is:

prices quoted should include to completion of work incl fixes for id'd and additional small newly id'd problems.

Work should be conducted so that a premis/ property is left in an condition another competent electrician would find no faults.

In the event any fault is identified in a persons work or paperwork, he will fix it with 2 weeks of being notified, unless dangerous in which case within 1 day.

Additional there shd be a guidance chart automatically updated to average unit cost / materials across a number of common suppliers( computers can do this these days)

And by constituency:
Average length of job
Average labour rate
Average call out charge

These figures wouldn't regulate down the prices, but by visibility would allow customers to know when they're being scr'd or when they're simply facing the going rate, no matter uncomfortable it is ;-)

 

[SJD]

I estimate materials metal cons unit ~£50, rcbo and fuses £5x10 (seen online). Call it £150inc vat + getting it The rest is labour. So that works out at £66/ circuit to unscrew a cable from one unit and screw into another, test the continuity, mark up a form, email it to me.

Materials costs depend on manufacturer, and I can assure you they are not all equal, some cheap brands really are also nasty and take longer to install.

There is also a bit more to it than unscrewing a cable from one unit and into another. I for one would be somewhat unhappy if that is how you put it to me, I wouldn't be "negotiating" as you mentioned, but walking away and letting you find someone cheap enough.

 

[newfutile]

Where can you get RCBO for a fiver I pay £25- 30 for mine

 

[littlespark]

cheapest rcd split board, possibly proteus from CEF. They have pre populated boards, but maybe not with an SPD.
might have to swap out certain sizes of breaker. £100 ish for materials.
Rcbo board, as above... £30+ per breaker, never mind the empty board.

electricians like to fit what they choose. That way we know we can give a warranty safe knowing the materials won’t be at fault.
fitting customer supplied stuff can get complicated when it goes wrong.
Buying cheap tat, esp from eBay, you could get a fake device that doesn’t work as it should.

I’m in a relatively cheap part of the country, and I would struggle to change a board for under £500, on the strength of a visual inspection.


working with electricity is as safety critical as working with gas or the brakes on your car, and you wouldn’t think twice about paying for those..... or would you?

 

[telectrix]

from post #53:

te materials metal cons unit ~£50, rcbo and fuses £5x10 (seen online). Call it £150inc vat +

what planet are you on? RCBOs are around £25 each. you probably need somewhere between 6 and 10 of these. and where do fuses come in?

 

[mattg4321]

I’ve just priced up a domestic consumer unit change. All RCBO with SPD. Materials cost to me are nearly £400 plus vat.

 

[UNG]

Well i stand informed :-/, thankyou.
There are 2 different electricians, both of which are experienced and i feel, competent, although one speaks in technical gobbledegook and " doesn't have time to educate me".
I'm trying negotiate with the 2nd buts hes avoiding me. I guess he reckons time will pressure me into accepting his orig quote.

I estimate materials metal cons unit ~£50, rcbo and fuses £5x10 (seen online). Call it £150inc vat + getting it The rest is labour. So that works out at £66/ circuit to unscrew a cable from one unit and screw into another, test their and say 12 sockets continuity, mark up a form, email it to me.

The problem.with the fellow's quote is what i want it a clear EICR form in my hand, that is one done with necessary corrections. We both expect any extra work if any to be minor, but you never know. His quote is to fit the consumer unit and do the test. That is if he id any additional problems on the form it goes and an estate agent will want it corrected and restested, according circulating rumours.

As hes not communicating now, i'm left in a difficult. Accept and leave myself open to ransom. Refuse and potentially go through similar with another electrician.

Its seems theres no standard of practice. Thats not to say either of electricians who've quoted are dodgy. But i the punter am having to go through a system of what ought to fundamentals in supply if a service, but are turning into sticking points. Perhaps there should be a common standard of customer service, overseen by BEIS or the Dept for Energy. That is:

prices quoted should include to completion of work incl fixes for id'd and additional small newly id'd problems.

Work should be conducted so that a premis/ property is left in an condition another competent electrician would find no faults.

In the event any fault is identified in a persons work or paperwork, he will fix it with 2 weeks of being notified, unless dangerous in which case within 1 day.

Additional there shd be a guidance chart automatically updated to average unit cost / materials across a number of common suppliers( computers can do this these days)

And by constituency:
Average length of job
Average labour rate
Average call out charge

These figures wouldn't regulate down the prices, but by visibility would allow customers to know when they're being scr'd or when they're simply facing the going rate, no matter uncomfortable it is ;-)

I don't know what your line of work is and whether you have customers that forensically analyse what they think they should pay for the products and / or services you supply but with that in mind I would suggest you put yourself in the position of the electrician(s) who have quoted you for the work and then read what you have posted then decide how you would react then you may understand what the problem is, personally I would probably just walk away and not communicate with you

 

[Mike Johnson]

To the OP, I think what you need is a "JCT Small Works Contract" that would give you overall control of contractor and would give the contractor the benefit of payment for additional works found during the fit out, perhaps both of you would be satisfied, personally I would walk away.