Don't you just love the SNP......

[UNG]

So maybe in this post I'm resorting to using your tactics, here's a few articles to get your teeth into - I've included a picture as a hint as to why your populist headline understanding is misguided.

Enough of the Scottish subsidy myth - Scotland pays its way in the Union
https://fullfact.org/scotland/
Leaders: Myth of Scotland as subsidy junkie of the UK is scotched - The ScotsmanView attachment 31203

Is that really the best you can do, look how old these facts are can you find something more up to date to support your argument.

Are you sure the Scotsman is an unbiased source though

 

[sean_ork]

So what other political party supports independence in Scotland or are you one of these people who sits on the fence spoiling for an argument decrying the sources of information used by others while supplying no credible sources of your own

Actually no, a bit of independent thought is what I'm trying to encourage - someone previously commented that tax spending and the associated implications isnt rocket science - it certainly isn't, its far more complex than making things go bang.

I'm not going to attempt to Google up a killer "fact" to win the point, all I'm asking is for folks who don't have a full understanding, and those who form their opinions based on snapshot articles and headlines to do a little reading around the topic, in much the same manner as you would expect to do to be able to fully master your trade.

 

[sean_ork]

You will have to refresh my memory as I don't recall the Thatcher / Major formula for funding administrative devolution or are you referring to the Barnett Formula devised by the Labour treasury minister called Joel Barnet

again, I encourage you to do a little reading around the topic - you'll likely discover who realised what a mistake had been made and who was the government primarily responsible for its implementation.

 

[sean_ork]

I wonder why no one moans about the spending/head in Wales or NI ?

 

[UNG]

again, I encourage you to do a little reading around the topic - you'll likely discover who realised what a mistake had been made and who was the government primarily responsible for its implementation.

So you are the only person that has read up on this do me a favour wake up and smell the coffee. Yes I have read up on it and your response is just so typicial . You are being very selective in your replies and this IMO reflects badly on your argument

The biggest mistake by Westminster was not giving all the UK a vote on Scottish independence,

 

[UNG]

Actually no, a bit of independent thought is what I'm trying to encourage - someone previously commented that tax spending and the associated implications isnt rocket science - it certainly isn't, its far more complex than making things go bang.

I'm not going to attempt to Google up a killer "fact" to win the point, all I'm asking is for folks who don't have a full understanding, and those who form their opinions based on snapshot articles and headlines to do a little reading around the topic, in much the same manner as you would expect to do to be able to fully master your trade.

An independent would give a balanced argument so you fail on that point

As for facts I suggest you take some of your own advice and read up and look a bit deeper into the issues

 

[sean_ork]

The biggest mistake by Westminster was not giving all the UK a vote on Scottish independence,

Says the man from Wigan.

Can we agree that all these words are rather pointless ?

 

[UNG]

I wonder why no one moans about the spending/head in Wales or NI ?

So Wales gets less than Scotland and Northern Ireland gets more and who whinges the loudest?

 

[sean_ork]

So Wales gets less than Scotland and Northern Ireland gets more and who whinges the loudest?

The English

 

[UNG]

The English

Shows how deaf the Scots have become

 

[UNG]

Says the man from Wigan.

Can we agree that all these words are rather pointless ?

As are your posts little fact and little substance by an independent nationalist if there is such a thing

I for one would have given Scotland independence if only to stop the incessant bickering and whinging from north of the border

The problem is that Salmond/ Sturgeon partnership wanted a pseudo independence that would be under the terms dictated by the SNP to the rest of the UK and also had some misguided assumption that they had some clout with the EU and the rest of the world

I would suggest if you want real views get out and about and see what people in other countries think not just the UK

 

[YoungScud]

So what other political party supports independence in Scotland or are you one of these people who sits on the fence spoiling for an argument decrying the sources of information used by others while supplying no credible sources of your own

Off the top of my head, The Scottish Greens, SSP, Solidarity, Not to mention other bodies and individuals, for example, The Independence Commission, a multi-partisan grouping set up to "Firstly, to create a forum for those of all political persuasions and none who support independence; and secondly, to be a national catalyst for Scottish independence."[SUP][[/SUP] Then there were National Collective, a group of pro-independence artists, Radical Independence Campaign, a group further to the left than the mainstream of independence supporters. There was also Business for Scotland, whose name tells you all you need to know. On top of that, there grew a Consititutional Convention, whose main aim was to draft and champion a wirtten constitution, which for me can be no bad thing. It was envisaged as a unicameral democracy, not a republic as one ignoramus has stated so far. In fact, although there was a definite republican element within the supporters of independence, it was a relatively small faction and keeping the Queen as head of state was always likely to be the preferred option, at least in the medium term. What really characterised the campaign for me, though, the thing which swayed me from being anti- (yes folks) to pro-independence was the adult fashion in which the SNP had learned to conduct itself. I had previously viewed them as disruptive, not without cause, but Alex salmond's second term as leader transformed them into a party which the people decided they could trust. Having served one hair raising term in minoirty government. they were then elected outright and have served ever since.

Now, the referendum campaign, to the neutral, must have looked as if nobody believed that Scotland could manage its own affairs. "Too small, too poor, too stupid" became the battle cry of Bitter Together. The media, with only one singular exeception (Sunday Herald) adopted the BT party line, and thsi includes BBC Scotland. At the last minute, Brown managed to persuade the leaders of the major parties to cobble together The Vow, which may or may not have swayed the vote. Who knows? What I do know is this; for the first time in my life, I was involved in a political campaign which felt right. We went from, a few months before the referendum, being 20 and more points behind in the polls to, with very little time left, a slender lead in a couple of them. In the end, the margin was narrow, but we attempted, having dried the tears to accept the defeat with grace. There was a sting in the Unionist tail though. A peaceful celebration of having taken part in something good was hijacked by unionist thugs wielding EDL, SDL, National Front, BNP, Orange Lodge, Rangers FC and other regalia. Two young women were beaten and their Saltire taken and burnt. Gays, Scots, anyone who didn't fit their hateful profile were attacked and beaten, flares thrown and passers-by terrorised. Still, the next day, Alex salmond did the right thing in his usual dignified manner and Scotland moved on.

Moving on, though, does not mean the dream died. Mine never will. If id doesn't happen during my lifetime, my sons won't stop working towards independence, and they have every right so to do, and none of you have any right to say otherwise, at least not if you want to go on keeping up the pretence of democracy.

 

[YoungScud]

Shows how deaf the Scots have become

I give you the OP. Neither Sean nor I started this thread.

"From the BBC

"New "English votes for English laws" rules have been implemented in the House of Commons for the first time.Conservative MPs cheered as English and Welsh members prepared to give their consent to parts of the Housing and Planning Bill that only apply to their constituencies.

Housing Minister Brandon Lewis said he was "very proud" to be implementing the reforms.


But the SNP said the changes were "driving Scotland out of the door".

I really don't get the SNP.

Tony Blair only got the initial tuition charges through for English and Welsh students with the votes of the Scottish Labour MP's - and with this bill anyone from the EU can study in Scotland for free EXCEPT the English and Welsh.


And the SNP have gone VERY quiet about independence since the crash in the oil price!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35295404 "

 

[YoungScud]

The biggest mistake by Westminster was not giving all the UK a vote on Scottish independence,

I'm guessing you believe that the UK as a whole would have given Scotland independence, just to be rid of it. Strange how that manifested itself.

 

[UNG]

Off the top of my head, The Scottish Greens, SSP, Solidarity, Not to mention other bodies and individuals, for example, The Independence Commission, a multi-partisan grouping set up to "Firstly, to create a forum for those of all political persuasions and none who support independence; and secondly, to be a national catalyst for Scottish independence."[SUP][[/SUP] Then there were National Collective, a group of pro-independence artists, Radical Independence Campaign, a group further to the left than the mainstream of independence supporters. There was also Business for Scotland, whose name tells you all you need to know. On top of that, there grew a Consititutional Convention, whose main aim was to draft and champion a wirtten constitution, which for me can be no bad thing. It was envisaged as a unicameral democracy, not a republic as one ignoramus has stated so far. In fact, although there was a definite republican element within the supporters of independence, it was a relatively small faction and keeping the Queen as head of state was always likely to be the preferred option, at least in the medium term. What really characterised the campaign for me, though, the thing which swayed me from being anti- (yes folks) to pro-independence was the adult fashion in which the SNP had learned to conduct itself. I had previously viewed them as disruptive, not without cause, but Alex salmond's second term as leader transformed them into a party which the people decided they could trust. Having served one hair raising term in minoirty government. they were then elected outright and have served ever since.

So a bunch of very very small minority parties driven by the thought that they would get some recognition if the independence vote won the day

The SNP have only become what they are peddling a dream that appeals to a number of Scottish people the sooner they deliver the better

Now, the referendum campaign, to the neutral, must have looked as if nobody believed that Scotland could manage its own affairs. "Too small, too poor, too stupid" became the battle cry of Bitter Together. The media, with only one singular exeception (Sunday Herald) adopted the BT party line, and thsi includes BBC Scotland. At the last minute, Brown managed to persuade the leaders of the major parties to cobble together The Vow, which may or may not have swayed the vote. Who knows? What I do know is this; for the first time in my life, I was involved in a political campaign which felt right. We went from, a few months before the referendum, being 20 and more points behind in the polls to, with very little time left, a slender lead in a couple of them. In the end, the margin was narrow, but we attempted, having dried the tears to accept the defeat with grace. There was a sting in the Unionist tail though. A peaceful celebration of having taken part in something good was hijacked by unionist thugs wielding EDL, SDL, National Front, BNP, Orange Lodge, Rangers FC and other regalia. Two young women were beaten and their Saltire taken and burnt. Gays, Scots, anyone who didn't fit their hateful profile were attacked and beaten, flares thrown and passers-by terrorised. Still, the next day, Alex salmond did the right thing in his usual dignified manner and Scotland moved on.

Not a chance of that ever happening

Moving on, though, does not mean the dream died. Mine never will. If id doesn't happen during my lifetime, my sons won't stop working towards independence, and they have every right so to do, and none of you have any right to say otherwise, at least not if you want to go on keeping up the pretence of democracy.

So you will continue to brow beat people. May be the manifesto should be "We will continue to vote on independence until the electorate gets it right"