Dual board with no earth on final circuits

[Sparksaflyin]

Hi guys. Need to change the fuseboard at my parents house but none of their final circuits have a cpc run to them. Obviously have an earth on the main incoming so I can get a 16mm earthing conductor up to my new 18th edition metallic consumer unit but they don’t want a rewire so none of the final circuits will be protected with an earth.

My question is will this be an issue in the functionality of the rcds? Obviously the rcd functions on an imbalance between live and neutral so as far as I’m concerned it shouldn’t be too much of an issue hopefully, just wanted to get some of your opinions on the matter.

Another issue I can see is how I’m supposed to test for disconnection times without an
earth?

Opinions would be greatly appreciated

Thanks

 

[Baddegg]

I was referring to the lack of an earth on the lighting. If it’s not there and they won’t let me change it, what exactly can I do? Thanks for the input though

What would you do if you were called to a customers house and were asked to do this work?.....

 

[Andy78]

Not takin sides on this one but it's a fascinating conversation.

On one side you have the "I'm leaving it safer than i found it" argument.

And on the other side you have the "regulations don't allow you to do what you want to do" argument.

There is also the law of "who touched it last" to think about and unless you have faultlessly followed the regs then you're culpable.

All leads to installations being left in an unsafe condition where they could be left in a safer condition as people won't pay to have them made compliant.

There should be a spirit of "if its an improvement then it's allowed" within the regs.

The current methodology of "it's fully compliant or walk away" is leading to electricians being put in the unenviable position of having to carry out partially compliant work, that leaves the installation safer, and carry the risk of prosecution.

I've not fallen foul of this as private domestic is not my bag, but can see it being a real dilema for those that do.

This is the way I approach it.
I follow the regulations as that is the standard we work to. I don't fall into the "The regs aren't statutory so we can choose them to suit" camp, as that makes no sense to me. You either follow a standard or don't.
If a customer doers not want me to follow regulations then I'm not doing the job. Simple as that.

If you follow 132.16 then you can't really be accused of leaving an unsafe situation. Ensure basic safety requirements are there and make sure the work you do is compliant.
If you do compliant work but potentially dangerous unrelated issues exist at the same address, you can make the owner aware verbally and in writing. You can't force anyone to have work done, but you can make them aware and you can walk away.

It doesn't matter if you were the "last one to touch it" as the work you do is detailed on the certificate provided.

There is no position of doing partially compliant work that could lead to prosecution unless you put yourself there by choice.

 

[Big jj]

I recently bought a 1960 build house. Been sorting out loads of issues. Back in 1976 I first qualified on the 14th edition. That came in 1966. It was common not to drop a CPC to the switch but normally a cpc is at the rose.
You might have that if you investigate. Understand the reluctance to rewire.
However in my house the cpc was just left cut back in the cable. No cpc at the switch drops. No metal conduits, just a metal cover in the plaster.
Some switch plates had been changed to pretty metal ones. Soon found out open circuit cpc. I rewired the drops and made many two way too.
Had loads of issues before I could update the consumer unit. In every socket the Neutral wire was connected to the metal back box and the cpc.
Found this when I did the testing when I moved in I was really puzzled why someone had done that. Not to any edition. My bald patch got a lot bigger. Took so much longer than I expected. Now have new board with Wylex DP RCBOs. Still have a shared Neutral somewhere on lighting. So only one 6amp for all internal lighting. Will be sorting that on my next break!!!

 

[Ian1981]

I don’t know why people feel the need to but plastic caps over switch screws as the provision of omission of fault protection can be applied at switch positions under regulation 410.3.9 indent (iii)
The note says that this exemption can be made to bolts, rivets,screws etc
This is my understanding of that regulation.
You can not grip the screw heads or make good enough contact with one in my opinion.

 

[davesparks]

There should be a spirit of "if its an improvement then it's allowed" within the regs.

The current methodology of "it's fully compliant or walk away" is leading to electricians being put in the unenviable position of having to carry out partially compliant work, that leaves the installation safer, and carry the risk of prosecution.

I've not fallen foul of this as private domestic is not my bag, but can see it being a real dilema for those that do.

The problem with "it's an improvement then its allowed" is that many people will see it as a licence to pick and choose whichever regulations are easiest/most profitable to comply with and not worry about the rest. You'd have more people than ever throwing in a new CU and not worrying about the condition of the old installation.

You only carry the risk of prosecution if something happens to bring about a prosecution. Everybody bends the rules, hopefully being fully aware of which rules can bend and which ones can't,but nobody is going to come on a forum and advise anyone which rules to bend or how they would deal with these partially compliant installations in the real world. On forums you will always get that text book answer.

 

[GBDamo]

Fair point. Not an easy one to discuss.

I do wonder though how many of the most vehement regs followers are put in this situation, or have forgotten the corners they cut before building a client base that allowed full compliance.

 

[Midwest]

I’ve been telling them this for over 10 years to no avail. They don’t want the mess which is understandable. They are both in their 60s so I can’t see them ever having it done.

I’m of that age, where I do what kids tell me .

You can tell them a rewire will make their, sorry your house more saleable, when that times come.

 

[James]

There is a train of thought that goes,
If I can’t change what imperfections are in the original wiring system
Do what I can to improve safety such as fit a new board with rcd etc.
Knowing it’s non compliant but better and closer to compliance than it was before you did any work is possibly a better moral position to be in than doing nothing at all.
Let’s face it, Earth or no earth to a light fitting, your chances of a fire or fatal shock are far higher with a fuse wire than a breaker and rcd combo.

Obviously this is not a course of action I would recommend.