Dual range cooker

[cdisney]

Hi all

After a little help please, as just completed my NVQ and AM2 and not completely confident in everything as I have only done one domestic job in my 4 year apprenticeship.
My neighbour has purchased a dual range cooker (7.4kW) and has asked if I can fit. After having a look I found this and was wondering if I am correct in what I have said:
They have had an extension and have a sub board with a 40A Rcd main switch feeding 32a mcb-skts and 6a-lights. The mains cable feeding this is 6mm SWA 3core. Obviously the range cooker would need its separate circuit so the board would need to be changed as its only a 4way but the mains cable feed would also need to be changed to at least 10mm SWA?
The neighbours plan was to go straight from the board through a wall which the range will be backed onto and terminated direct. Can't find anything in regs saying you can't terminate direct rather than through a cooker switch but is it best practice to do this?

thanks

 

[Leesparkykent]

Problem there, is that a switch intended for emergency isolation would also have to satisfy all the requirements in the Regulations for emergency switches.
Most householders will not find such acceptable.

Think he means local isolation that could be switched off in the event of an emergency

 

[Guest125]

Think he means local isolation that could be switched off in the event of an emergency

That is exactly what I meant.

 

[Anthony S]

Think he means local isolation that could be switched off in the event of an emergency

Normally cookers have built in controls to switch on/off, its only the clock that normally stays on.

 

[Leesparkykent]

Normally cookers have built in controls to switch on/off, its only the clock that normally stays on.

oh really, I never knew that lol

 

[polo1]

Have to say, some of the posters to this thread are turning this Forum into a joke. Keep your pi**ing contests to yourself. Either answer the OP (although there was not enough info to offer a fully informed view) or don't. Most of us can come across enough grief during a normal working day without having to sign on here and find more.
Rant over!

 

[sparksburnout]

Blimey these cooker debates will go on forever! Could I just ask, under what circumstances do people envisage that the cooker controls can't be used to switch it off under emergency conditions? Or furthermore, what emergency conditions? There can't be anyone in the entire country now who would have a new dual range cooker fitted and use a chip pan, what else is going to burst into an uncontrollable fire? I am personally on the fence with this, but have to question the real worth of a blinking great switch stuck on the wall in modern shiny kitchens, that probably will never be used? As has been said you can isolate it at the CU, and if you don't know how to you shouldn't be working on it anyway? I take the point about an RCD fault but surely it can be isolated at the CU if required?? A local switch does make life a bit easier, but only in the fairly rare occasions it might be used. If it were May nice new kitchen I wouldn't want one either!!

 

[Engineer54]

Blimey these cooker debates will go on forever! Could I just ask, under what circumstances do people envisage that the cooker controls can't be used to switch it off under emergency conditions? Or furthermore, what emergency conditions? There can't be anyone in the entire country now who would have a new dual range cooker fitted and use a chip pan, what else is going to burst into an uncontrollable fire? I am personally on the fence with this, but have to question the real worth of a blinking great switch stuck on the wall in modern shiny kitchens, that probably will never be used? As has been said you can isolate it at the CU, and if you don't know how to you shouldn't be working on it anyway? I take the point about an RCD fault but surely it can be isolated at the CU if required?? A local switch does make life a bit easier, but only in the fairly rare occasions it might be used. If it were May nice new kitchen I wouldn't want one either!!

It is unlikely that an OCPD would be suitable for a means of local isolation/means of emergency isolation etc. Integral cooker controls are ''NOT'' a recognised means of isolation, power is still present within the cooker and may well be the source of the fault. 45A Cooker wall switches are no longer the blinking big switches they once were, they can now be the size of single outlet.

To be honest anyone that installs a CCU without a 45A DP switch and relies on a OCPD that could be some distance away, or buried under coats and things under the stairs really needs to (and unless you are prepared to use the main switch, find the appropriate OCPD to isolate) think long and hard again!! That local isolation switch may well not be used for extended periods of time, but when it's needed and needed quickly it's there ready to serve it's purpose.....

 

[Guest125]

It is unlikely that an OCPD would be suitable for a means of local isolation/means of emergency isolation etc. Integral cooker controls are ''NOT'' a recognised means of isolation, power is still present within the cooker and may well be the source of the fault. 45A Cooker wall switches are no longer the blinking big switches they once were, they can now be the size of single outlet.

To be honest anyone that installs a CCU without a 45A DP switch and relies on a OCPD that could be some distance away, or buried under coats and things under the stairs really needs to (and unless you are prepared to use the main switch, find the appropriate OCPD to isolate) think long and hard again!! That local isolation switch may well not be used for extended periods of time, but when it's needed and needed quickly it's there ready to serve it's purpose.....

Completely agree.

 

[Octopus]

It is unlikely that an OCPD would be suitable for a means of local isolation/means of emergency isolation etc. Integral cooker controls are ''NOT'' a recognised means of isolation, power is still present within the cooker and may well be the source of the fault. 45A Cooker wall switches are no longer the blinking big switches they once were, they can now be the size of single outlet.

To be honest anyone that installs a CCU without a 45A DP switch and relies on a OCPD that could be some distance away, or buried under coats and things under the stairs really needs to (and unless you are prepared to use the main switch, find the appropriate OCPD to isolate) think long and hard again!! That local isolation switch may well not be used for extended periods of time, but when it's needed and needed quickly it's there ready to serve it's purpose.....

These days my post #16 is more relevent, as its the shared RCD tripping that is far more likely than the need to isolate the cooker in an emergency!

 

[Guest125]

These days my post #16 is more relevent, as its the shared RCD tripping that is far more likely than the need to isolate the cooker in an emergency!

But the post is about a cooker

 

[telectrix]

never seen a post on a cooker. pans, yes. :21:

 

[Engineer54]

These days my post #16 is more relevent, as its the shared RCD tripping that is far more likely than the need to isolate the cooker in an emergency!

All i will say, is read the last sentence of my post again....

 

[snowhead]

There can't be anyone in the entire country now who would have a new dual range cooker fitted and use a chip pan, what else is going to burst into an uncontrollable fire?

The thing with an "emergency" is you never know when or what nature it's going to be.

Also:

London Fire Brigade - Brigade blames ?posh chips? for rise in chip pan fires

 

[Octopus]

All i will say, is read the last sentence of my post again....

Yup.

Telling Mrs Jones to switch off the cooker at the "local" isolation switch is far easier than telling her to turn off the MCB, or worse turn off the MCB and remove the cover of the CU and disconnect the neutral!

The regs should mandate DP isolation switches for fixed appliances such as cookers! just saying.

 

[sparksburnout]

It is unlikely that an OCPD would be suitable for a means of local isolation/means of emergency isolation etc. Integral cooker controls are ''NOT'' a recognised means of isolation, power is still present within the cooker and may well be the source of the fault. 45A Cooker wall switches are no longer the blinking big switches they once were, they can now be the size of single outlet.

To be honest anyone that installs a CCU without a 45A DP switch and relies on a OCPD that could be some distance away, or buried under coats and things under the stairs really needs to (and unless you are prepared to use the main switch, find the appropriate OCPD to isolate) think long and hard again!! That local isolation switch may well not be used for extended periods of time, but when it's needed and needed quickly it's there ready to serve it's purpose.....

Yes I think that's a very well made point and advice I think I will heed now, having had another good think

 

[sparksburnout]

The thing with an "emergency" is you never know when or what nature it's going to be.

Also:

London Fire Brigade - Brigade blames ?posh chips? for rise in chip pan fires

Ah good point, Jamie Oliver eh?

 

[andyelectric]

With other heat producing equipment in the kitchen other than the cooker there is probably a good argument for a double pole isolation for kitchen ring finals(obviously both ends) as well as cooker radials.

Speaking from recent experience of a toaster fire in an adjacent flat where water and coats were thrown over the offending item without pulling the plug. The plug was opposite side from the fire, and the idiots had switched their brand new toaster on to test it without removing cardboard from inside.

 

[Simlec]

Yup.

Telling Mrs Jones to switch off the cooker at the "local" isolation switch is far easier than telling her to turn off the MCB, or worse turn off the MCB and remove the cover of the CU and disconnect the neutral!

The regs should mandate DP isolation switches for fixed appliances such as cookers! just saying.

As I said in post #11 that mcbs are having a extra note attached to them I think.

 

[Simlec]

Hager - Circuit breakers used as switching devices

 

[davesparks]

With other heat producing equipment in the kitchen other than the cooker there is probably a good argument for a double pole isolation for kitchen ring finals(obviously both ends) as well as cooker radials.
.

Care to expand on exactly what you mean by this? It reads as though you mean put a DP switch in each end of the ring?

 

[andyelectric]

Care to expand on exactly what you mean by this? It reads as though you mean put a DP switch in each end of the ring?

I was thinking more along the lines of kitchen sockets being wired as lollipop rings allowing a single double pole isolation at the kitchen entrance.

It was only a tuppenceworth thought after upstairs flats recent fire.

 

[Engineer54]

Originally Posted by andyelectric
With other heat producing equipment in the kitchen other than the cooker there is probably a good argument for a double pole isolation for kitchen ring finals(obviously both ends) as well as cooker radials.

Care to expand on exactly what you mean by this? It reads as though you mean put a DP switch in each end of the ring?

That's exactly what it means/say's, it can't be read any other way!!

 

[Simlec]

I was thinking more along the lines of kitchen sockets being wired as lollipop rings allowing a single double pole isolation at the kitchen entrance.

It was only a tuppenceworth thought after upstairs flats recent fire.

Whats that got to do with the fixed electrical installation ? It was the upstairs occupants fault !
LOL next you will want fire stations on all street corners lol

 

[DPG]

Post #32 by Eng54 is bang on in my opinion. It may indeed be very unlikely for a cooker to need isolating in an emergency, but if it does then I would prefer some housewife didn't have to find the consumer unit, empty the contents of the cupboard under the stairs to get it, and then plunge the house into darkness when she flicks all the MCBs off. Daz

(Didn't mean for the housewife bit to sound sexist, apologies if it did)

 

[Silly Sausage]

Post #32 by Eng54 is bang on in my opinion. It may indeed be very unlikely for a cooker to need isolating in an emergency, but if it does then I would prefer some housewife didn't have to find the consumer unit, empty the contents of the cupboard under the stairs to get it, and then plunge the house into darkness when she flicks all the MCBs off. Daz

(Didn't mean for the housewife bit to sound sexist, apologies if it did)

With my Mrs, the smoke alarms have gone off way before anything catches fire.