ECA and ESC announce major partnership

[NICEIC ENGINEER]

As announced yesterday the ECA and ESC have formed a new partnership for the good of the industry.

From April next year the NICEIC and ELECSA brands will be operated by a new venture called Certsure giving the industry a stronger voice to government and major stakeholders.

The move will bring many benefits to NICEIC and ELECSA registrants, the first of which is the creation of www.electricalsafetyregister.com a definitive searchable database of more than 30 000 registered electricians.

As part of our policy to be open and informative about the merger we have set up this thread for anyone to ask any questions or queries they might have.

A member of the NICEIC team will monitor the site at various points over the next week and provide answers to any questions you might have about the move.

We want you to get involved and look forward to hearing from you.

 

[MDJ]

I’ll tell everyone I’m no bloody good at domestic!

Ah your a proper spark then :biggrin5:

 

[Outspoken]

Rock, I don’t mind that at all.

I’ll tell everyone I’m no bloody good at domestic!

The wife did say she always has to do the chores about the house!

 

[Knobhead]

So where did you want this socket?

I've done a grand total of 5 domestic installs in 40 years. Bloody family, I will say they were all top notch installs.

I dread to think how the guy that bought my first house went on with it.

Four 230V RFC's
Two 110V RFC's
Only one 130V DC RFC
Two contactor panels
Four CU's
I can't leave out the DC powered crane in the loft.
15KV test bed. (No I didn't tie the wife to it!)

I used to get bored!

 

[Geordie Spark]

I wonder where the OP has been hiding while all this banter has been going on ???

 

[Knobhead]

Hiding under his solid oak desk?

 

[Rockingit]

I used to get bored!

Announcement from the dept of the bleedin' obvious!!

 

[Engineer54]

Make your mind up!



Either the 2330 is a lesser qualification and a waste of my time, or its a core requirement for every electrician.

To be honest I can't be bothered arguing anymore. If anyone has the temerity to take a different view to your own you throw all your toys out of the pram. If they still don't back down you start contradicting yourself in an attempt to prove a point.

Things have moved on, many of us don't think it's for the better or like the changes. Some accept that progress isn't allways good and get on with it. Some moan their faces off on a forum and try to belittle anyone who takes a different view or route to theirs. So you carry on moaning and tilting at windmills, I'll carry on earning a living, and so will the evil training providers and dodgy 5 week wonders.

I'll bet that while all that is going on there won't be a sudden increase in electrocutions, the job of an electrician will continue to have several definitions, society will not come to an end, and the majority of people will carry on with their lives.

Perhaps you can explain exactly where i have backtracked or contradicted myself?? If your still talking about the 2360 and the 2330, it's either or, not both for god's sake!! Though in your case, why anyone would bother taking the 2330, when already holding a full 2360 B/C is just totally beyond me!!

I too can't be bothered arguing anymore with you, it clearly isn't worth it, your basically arguing for arguments sake!! Trying to convince us that it's fine that electricians don't need the training they once had, because we live in different times, ...that is just total nonsense. Perhaps you can explain why this isn't the case in France, Germany, Netherlands, (and a good few more in western Europe) where there electricians training regime is improving with the times rather than being whittled away?? But then our European cousins don't have anything like our 17 day/electrical trainee training courses, they are just not as bloody stupid as the UK.

Burying your head in the sand, will sooner rather than later bite you hard in the arse!!

 

[Engineer54]

I'm sort of in agreement with everyone on this which is awkward - the merits of having 'full' (whatever that is) training to probably go on to work in only a few areas -v- starting out that way to start with and specialising (and I use the term loosely!) in the training.

Here's a thought for us all, though: I'm going to use Tony as an example, and only as an example, not because I'm in anyway trying to take a swing at him.......as I understand it his electrical background (which is significant and to be respected) pretty much centred from the earliest days as an apprentice in heavy industry. How much of his training was spent doing 'light' and buildings related installs, rewiring the burnt-out pub, running in new office lights, ripping up Mrs Jones' floorboards..etc? Because that's almost entirely what mine consisted of - and I couldn't even have told you where the nearest big factory was, let alone a foundry or similar. But both of us spent our time in the classroom, learning the same theories, doing the same maths, wondering who on earth would ever actually need to calculate flux losses in the real world (or whatever was the stupid lesson of the day).

So you've two apprentice trained, experienced sparks (albeit Tony has a few more years on me) with completely different backgrounds and skill-sets. Both equally fulfil the 'time served -v- Electrical Trainee' debate, yet we might just as well be from different planets. And I'd quite like to live on his.

(Tony - hope you know me well enough to get the sense of what I mean!)

The difference being, that he could and did turn his hand to Domestic work, a domestic electrician (which it seems, all we are churning out of our colleges now) would have a hard time turning they're hand too heavy industrial work etc!! Changing times should mean that today's college students should be getting ''Better'' training than the likes of Tony and Myself, not limited, or inferior training...

 

[Rockingit]

The difference being, that he could and did turn his hand to Domestic work, a domestic electrician (which it seems, all we are churning out of our colleges now) would have a hard time turning they're hand too heavy industrial work etc!! Changing times should mean that today's college students should be getting ''Better'' training than the likes of Tony and Myself, not limited, or inferior training...

OK, that's a fine principal, but my point earlier is that his apprenticeship didn't cover the 'cannon fodder' kind of stuff, mine didn't cover heavy industrial but both were equally valid in their own merits. And to play devils advocate, given my other earlier remark, I've not been in a plant environment, none that I know of exist around my area....so had I have been taught those skills back then, by now they would be rusty at best and I'd be a danger trying to use them, therefore what's the point in 'knowing' them?

 

[Toonlad]

Its a funny old world this sparky stuff, I served my time in the shipyards, Swan Hunters back in the day,working on merchant and MOD ships, attention to details was a must. As an apprentice we got bounced around 4 yards and worked on different ships. We had to do plant maintenance, fixing the cranes, welding sets,generators, undercutting motors etc. They had there own instrument tech, and we had to work with him and calibrate meters and other equipment. At college we covered domestic aswell as the marine modules.

We had the influx of miners, who our shop stewards got them into the union (eetpu) at the time. This was my first eye opener, They came with there card NUM, it covered everyone, from faceworkers to templights etc. Then some of these said they were electricians through the NUM, and now got full electrician status through the shop stewards,this was a complete slap in the face for lots of sparks at the time.What could you do or say, it was my own union moving the goal posts.

At this point i realised that becoming an electrician, was going to become easier over the years, and any loopholes, through training providers, colleges,employers would be exploited. It is now down to 5 weeks in essence now.

This being said and done, I had a well rounded 4 yr apprenticeship, and would do well on other work like domestics. Redundancies start I move on.

I couldnt get a fix straight away, as a lot of sites wouldnt take yard workers, they thought they were crap, and couldnt wire a plug. I got a fix on a site, and applied for a JIB card, took 3 yrs before they granted me my approved. Then I see an old school mate, who was a posty, done 2 yrs city and guilds courses, got his brother in law who was the contracts manager and he got a JIB card, and was deemed a electrician.

So from early 80s, and had seen two ways of people getting electrician status. Other than doing an apprenticeship and getting there indentures.

These fast track ways have always been there in one shape or another, its just now its more openly promoted, and is backed by governing bodies. As Craftsmen/tradesmen/technicians/engineers. We have only our selves to blame. It is us that have lowered the bar, it is us who have let them get away with it.

I used to be quite proud of calling my self a time served electrician, now that does not seem to matter anymore.

Im sure there is some relevance in my post somewhere.

 

[Engineer54]

OK, that's a fine principal, but my point earlier is that his apprenticeship didn't cover the 'cannon fodder' kind of stuff, mine didn't cover heavy industrial but both were equally valid in their own merits. And to play devils advocate, given my other earlier remark, I've not been in a plant environment, none that I know of exist around my area....so had I have been taught those skills back then, by now they would be rusty at best and I'd be a danger trying to use them, therefore what's the point in 'knowing' them?

Using that analogy, would mean that electricians only need to be trained for the local conditions in which they live. God help you, if you move away from that area into an industrial /semi industrial area, or the like!! I can't think of any educational College or otherwise qualification, that would limit the curriculum based on local conditions. They are and always have been based on a national standard curriculum set by whatever educational institute the qualification paper is set by. Any electrical training (and it's final qualification) should be such, that it provides the student with a good all round technical foundation on which to start your career.

 

[Geordie Spark]

Its a funny old world this sparky stuff, I served my time in the shipyards, Swan Hunters back in the day,working on merchant and MOD ships, attention to details was a must. As an apprentice we got bounced around 4 yards and worked on different ships. We had to do plant maintenance, fixing the cranes, welding sets,generators, undercutting motors etc. They had there own instrument tech, and we had to work with him and calibrate meters and other equipment. At college we covered domestic aswell as the marine modules.

We had the influx of miners, who our shop stewards got them into the union (eetpu) at the time. This was my first eye opener, They came with there card NUM, it covered everyone, from faceworkers to templights etc. Then some of these said they were electricians through the NUM, and now got full electrician status through the shop stewards,this was a complete slap in the face for lots of sparks at the time.What could you do or say, it was my own union moving the goal posts.

At this point i realised that becoming an electrician, was going to become easier over the years, and any loopholes, through training providers, colleges,employers would be exploited. It is now down to 5 weeks in essence now.

This being said and done, I had a well rounded 4 yr apprenticeship, and would do well on other work like domestics. Redundancies start I move on.

I couldnt get a fix straight away, as a lot of sites wouldnt take yard workers, they thought they were crap, and couldnt wire a plug. I got a fix on a site, and applied for a JIB card, took 3 yrs before they granted me my approved. Then I see an old school mate, who was a posty, done 2 yrs city and guilds courses, got his brother in law who was the contracts manager and he got a JIB card, and was deemed a electrician.

So from early 80s, and had seen two ways of people getting electrician status. Other than doing an apprenticeship and getting there indentures.

These fast track ways have always been there in one shape or another, its just now its more openly promoted, and is backed by governing bodies. As Craftsmen/tradesmen/technicians/engineers. We have only our selves to blame. It is us that have lowered the bar, it is us who have let them get away with it.

I used to be quite proud of calling my self a time served electrician, now that does not seem to matter anymore.

Im sure there is some relevance in my post somewhere.

Respect to you bonny lad.

I had 3 ex-Swan's lads working for me - a Driller, a Pipefitter & a Caulker/Burner. Good grafters & very handy to take with me when I had to visit customers who were a bit slow in paying the bill ......

 

[ricardo123]

I'd like to put down my two pence worth on this subject, I apologise if this has already been said as I have only made it up to post 110 (so far).

At the end of the day these schemes make money by getting more members to join their said scheme. So it is in their interests to dumb down the standards required to join a scheme as they will make more money hence the Electrical Trainee. They would possibly be happy if they could get it down to a 1 day course to be an electrician before joining as they will make more money.

My second point is that being a charity these days can be meaningless. Some companies now register as charities not because they are real charities but because of the benefits to making more money it brings. I am not suggesting any scheme has done this but just being registered as a charity does not make a company altruistic.

My third point is that the current schemes are making it harder for people like myself to want to work for other companies, such as facilities management companies, as they want to employ a QS to sign off unskilled tradesmen's work. They are not bothered whether the quality is great so long as the number of jobs completed is high, this puts pressure on qualified people like myself to sign anything off even when we know it's possibly substandard.

Unfortunately the schemes in my opinion have been the single biggest cause for a lowering of electrical standards since I can remember.

 

[Geordie Spark]

There's still no sign of the OP lads 'n' lasses ....... I do hope he's looking in and taking all of this on board !!!

 

[SirKit Breaker]

I have had a recent conversation regarding this from a very very reliable source. Just to really pee you off, to get onto this register you will need as a minimum to have served a recognised apprenticeship, hold the latest 17th edition qualification, hold both C&G 2394 and 2395 or equivalent, hold 2391 but have a plan in place to get 2394 and 2395. The industry is out to kill the cowboys, but how many good sparks with grandfather rights will be killed in the process?

Cheers.............Howard