ECA and ESC announce major partnership

[NICEIC ENGINEER]

As announced yesterday the ECA and ESC have formed a new partnership for the good of the industry.

From April next year the NICEIC and ELECSA brands will be operated by a new venture called Certsure giving the industry a stronger voice to government and major stakeholders.

The move will bring many benefits to NICEIC and ELECSA registrants, the first of which is the creation of www.electricalsafetyregister.com a definitive searchable database of more than 30 000 registered electricians.

As part of our policy to be open and informative about the merger we have set up this thread for anyone to ask any questions or queries they might have.

A member of the NICEIC team will monitor the site at various points over the next week and provide answers to any questions you might have about the move.

We want you to get involved and look forward to hearing from you.

 

[Rockingit]

Their training was different to yours, but did you ever stop to consider that it's more relevant to the job and time they're working in?

That is a fair shout. Working practices, technology, materials etc all evolve. For someone who did their time in the 70's, what can you teach me about data cable? (For example).

 

[Engineer54]

Their training was different to yours, but did you ever stop to consider that it's more relevant to the job and time they're working in?

So what are you saying here, that today's 5 Week (and shorter) training courses is all that's required now?? lol!!

I can fully understand how and why this industry has taken such a nose dive into the abyss, with the attitudes such as yours. Oh and that high standard of work you mention above, are you talking about the PVC trunking, conduit, and T&E installations, Oh and not forgetting SWA cables?? If not, then your probably talking about the older electricians, or the few that have undergone real training via a bona fide apprenticeship. Those older guys won't be around too much longer. So let's hope they train a good amount of the younger electricians in the art of metal containment and the like...

Contrary to your belief no-ones insulting electricians that have been trained in recent times, the insults are squarely aimed at the training, or rather the lack of it, and i'm not just talking about the numbty training centres either. Were turning out by the thousands, domestic based electricians rather than the well rounded electricians of yesteryears, and that's the real truth of the matter!!

 

[Engineer54]

That is a fair shout. Working practices, technology, materials etc all evolve. For someone who did their time in the 70's, what can you teach me about data cable? (For example).

Come to that Rockingit, do they actually cover such systems in today's electricians training?? I doubt it, they don't seem to cover too much of what's included in the current Reg's, let alone systems that are barely touched within it. Those 70's trained electricians that have worked as a matter of course with data cabling over the years, could i'm sure teach you or anyone else the in's and out's of data cabling systems...

Data wiring and the like, are areas of our industry that are easily picked up as a matter of course by well trained electricians, it's not rocket science. But can still be made a real mess of, by those not understanding these systems and/or thinking it's a real doddle....

Food for thought now, ...how many electricians can read schematic control drawings these days, from what i can make out, ....not too many of them!!

 

[KAS1]

Just a couple of points, I remember after gaining my "Apprenticeship Completion Diploma" and after passing my C&G exams, I then had to apply for my "C&G Electrician's Certificate" (which to be awarded this, many electrical disciplines were part of your training over the 5 year apprentice training, all types of work from T&E to SWA, MICC, Conduit, Trunking, Motors, Control, Traywork, Exd, Flamproof installations, Fire alarm systems, Shops, Factories, Etc Etc ) then also on top of this apply for JIB grading as an "Electrician" (you could not get this without the C&G Electrician's Certificate). So it really p****es me off when a Electrical Trainee compares themselves to qualified Electricians. How many Electrical Trainee would be able to tick the boxes on a application form for the "C&G Electrician's certificate " as it used to be, I would say not one and then they whinge that the JIB only grades them as labourers, well I think that's the reason, as they don't as they say make the grade. lol after their Electrical Trainee they should be classed as semi skilled for several years IMO and not be allowed to registrar as a self employed spark and registrar with a scheme as an Electrician.

 

[Rockingit]

It was more an example than a specific item but I know you get what I meant. Its true that I think most training in general is broken up into component parts....learn it when you need it.

 

[Knobhead]

Their training was different to yours, but did you ever stop to consider that it's more relevant to the job and time they're working in?

So as soon I was finally handed my indentures the door was closed to further training was it?
I don’t think so, the learning had only just begun.

 

[oldtimer]

You know reading these posts it looks like Electrical Trainee v Timed Served but that's not how I see it looks to me the problem is the ever growing monster that basically must be fed and it does not care where it gets its money from and yes I mean the Schemies who in my view have saturated and diluted the trade. Now I realise that apprenticeships are no longer going about and there are guys wanting to enter the trade as mature trainers fine but the current environment where people have no hope with regards to jobs are saying thats it I am going to change my life and all the schemes are bothered about is selling them courses and registering them.

Now that premise sounds ok but the problem we have is the title electrician so in my view the Scheme system can be good as say a modern apprenticeship system were an Individual does 6 months training and then are grade as Domestic electricians with supervision from the Scheme.

Now I live in Scotland so I am not affected by this Part P!sh and from a legal point of view Scheme membership is not compulsary because if it was it would go against the European Free Trade Act now I know some people will say O no not Europe but this is to do with the brainwashing we get here a bit like someone in Scotland saying who is London to make laws over us well we are a part of a democracy and our MPs vote in London the same as our MEPs vote in Brussels . So I am sorry to say this mess is ours because parts of Europe have a Licence registration for electrician we have "Quangoes" and "Bodies" because we are British and don't have to pass laws for this type of thing. We may think we have Democracy in this country but in reality we are just continuing the age old patronage system.

Also we should not underestimate Joe Public who know this notification system is a nonsense and the British way of circumnavigating around this mockery of a system we are meant to have

 

[Outspoken]

Guys please, there is no need for this to get personal, we all have an interest in improving standards, some see one route as the best option, some see a different route, all opinions are valid but not all may be the right way to go.

We should not blame the Guy (and ladies) who complete successfully the Electrical Trainee courses UNLESS they go out believing they are duly qualified and experienced and can teach us experienced sparks anything, because they cannot. However any of them that complete these courses and wish to gain real world experience working with time served sparks so they can improve their practical knowledge and skills should be encouraged and not insulted.

We should not blame the trainees for the lack of training by the trainers, we need to apportion blame correctly and in the right direction....and that means every direction..

• Parliament
• NICEIC
• JIB
• ECA
• Non-ECA Employers
• IEE
• CIBSE
• City and Guilds
• Colleges
• Sparks in the Industry

All have a part and a role to play in the state of the industry, many of the changes made have been done so with the best of intentions, but we all know where the road to good intentions really leads. We need to muster the troops and get all electricians and engineers working together to force the rest of the Industry to work for the betterment of all, it cannot be from a single standpoint because it would never work. improvements promised need to be demonstrated and "sold" to the skeptics, and if it requires a new body to do this then so be it, but we do have bodies that are capable of doing this with some thought put into play, but for financial reasons i do not believe they would be interested, sadly.

 

[Geordie Spark]

A national register would require the authority of parliament and therefore a charter.
America and many EU countries require registration for electricians. Why should the UK be any different?
Without the profit motive of the current schemes I would expect a registration fee much lower than at present. A legally required level of entry will raise standards.

I know it sounds callous, we need a few more MP’s daughters electrocuted to get things underway.

I think I would rather have the MPs electrocuted - while they're strapped in a chair.

 

[Outspoken]

I think I would rather have the MPs electrocuted - while they're strapped in a chair.

The only problem with that is they would claim the chair as a second home and put the electricity on expenses! :rolleyes2:

 

[Knobhead]

The only problem with that is they would claim the chair as a second home and put the electricity on expenses! :rolleyes2:

I’ll willingly pay the electricity bill for the chair.

Somewhere I’ve got the time/voltage/current charts. I’ll stump up for a KWHr worth of entertainment! That should get rid of three of the parasites.

Back in a bit when I find the figures.

 

[Knobhead]

During electrocution there are two (2) factors that must be considered: the conscious and the autonomic nervous systems. Voltages in excess of 1500 volts ac are generally sufficient to destroy the conscious nervous system, that which controls pain and understanding. Generally, unconsciousness occurs in 4.16 milliseconds, which is 1/240 part of a second. This is twenty-four (24) times as fast as the subjects conscious nervous system can record pain. The autonomic nervous system is a little more difficult, however, and generally requires in excess of 2000 volts ac to seize the pacemaker in the subjects heart. Generally, we compute the voltage at 2000 volts ac plus 20%. After the voltage is applied and the subjects body saturates, the voltage has dropped about 10% (depending upon the resistance of the electrode contacts and that of the subject body) and this should be taken into consideration, as well. Current should be kept under six (6) amperes to minimize body damage (cooking).
Ideally, the voltage is calculated thus:

The average man weighing 70 kilos (154 lbs.) requires 2000 volts ac to seize the heart.
Increase the voltage by 20% to accommodate subjects with greater resistance.
2000 volts ac plus 20% equals 2400 volts ac.
Increase voltage by 10% for drop at saturation.
2400 volts ac plus 10% equals 2640 volts ac.
Thus, the voltage should be 2640 volts ac.

This 2640 volts ac should be applied in two (2) jolts of one (1) minute each, spaced at a ten (10) second interval. On occasion, the subjects heart will spasm, instead of seizing, during the first application of current and the application of the second jolt will generally eliminate this problem. This spasm is due to excessive chemical build-up (acetylcholine and sympathin) at the nerve junctions and the ten (10) second wait generally allows for dissipation of the chemicals.

 

[Knobhead]

Why is it, there is never a definitive answer to anything? Found this in my collection of nasty electrical things

This is another method

Usually 2 cycles each lasting 90 seconds with a 30 second tea break between the two.
1,800 volts at 7.5 amps for 30 seconds
240 volts at 1.5 amps for 60 seconds
Tea break for 30 seconds
1,800 volts at 7.5 amps for 30 seconds
240 volts at 1.5 amps for 60 seconds

The current will fall during each pulse, this was corrected in one design by using a higher voltage and a current limiting inductor. That went a bit wrong on two occasions

1/ the inductors burnt out before the victim was dead
2/ the victim caught fire

 

[Outspoken]

Tony, typical Yank drivel. The current on the circuit will be that induced by the resistance of body for the given voltage, and this will be regardless of connecting the person to a circuit with no external load or 1000A loaded onto it....unless you break the Neutral and use them to link it out...OUCH!

However the US system of electrocution has many serious flaws in it, not least of which the system used in US prisons for execution only used the 240V dual phase supply in most cases, because it was all that was available, and this was not guaranteed to kill, let alone kill in a decent and humane way. There are several hundred executions noted where the subject caught fire and had to be extinguished before being shocked again until they died...I think the longest was something in the region of about 35 minutes...this is why many states went to the Gas chamber.

Personally I would simply use a 230V single phase supply to a feed a motor to drive an 1:1 alternator to give an output at 600Hz that was then fed into a 27:1 Tx to give an output of 6210V ...believe me that would kill them stone dead within about 0.5s..Job Done.

 

[Knobhead]

The first chairs used 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] hand generators. Westinghouse refused to sell them new ones.

Guaranteed to kill? I’m speaking you from the grave if it is. 10KV to earth didn’t kill me.