EDF Economy 9 Off Peak times-?

[Psych1965]

To all the electricians out there who understand the Economy 9 tariff: I live in a flat that has an Economy 9 tariff (Off Peak electricity at certain set times of day-EDF control these times of day). My Off Peak circuit is my Heating circuit and my Peak circuit is my Power circuit.

I was advised by EDF that the Off-Peak supply turns on at the following times: 1:30-3:30; 10:00PM-midnight, 2am-5am, and 5.30am-7.30am (a total of 9 hours). This is what I had observed until the last couple of days-for example, this afternoon, the red light on my water tank (which is connected to the off peak supply) came on at 12:30 (and not 1:30PM) and the two radiators that I had installed on Thursday also came on at 12:30 (the supply came on) instead of at 1:30.

I had an electrician here on Thursday who replaced my old storage heaters with new electric radiators. He said he had to "reconfigure" my fuseboard. Is it possible that whatever he did has changed the times that supply energy to my off peak sockets? This doesn't make sense to me.

Last night I also noticed that my bedroom radiator (which is connected to the off-peak (also called heating circuit, as opposed to power circuit) was on at 9:15PM-suggesting it came on at 9:00PM (instead of at 10:00PM as EDF had advised).

EDF used to have a Complex Meter Team until a few months ago-it was that team who provided me with the hours for the Off Peak supply.

I am concerned because I have a timer connected to my water tank such that my water is supposed to warm up between 1:30-3:30PM and at other times throughout the night (as per to EDF's timings). But if EDF have changed their Off Peak timings, should I be changing the times I have set on my timer, so that I am heating water at the off peak time? I actually don't think so since the timer will go off when EDF's Off Peak hour "stops" so if in fact they have changed the timings from 1:39-3:30 to 12:3-2:30-it should shut off automatically at 2:30PM. My timer is due to come on at 1:30 and shut off at 1:30 but EDF have clearly changed the times that the Off Peak supply comes on and off.

So, two questions really: the above Q. in bold and the Q. above in bold re-my electrician and my fusebox. I can't understand why the times have changed-surely these are controlled by EDF, no?

Please can someone advise? Just to add: I don't think this is to do with Daylight Savings Time/British Summer time-because until recently, the times that my Off peak sockets were coming on were as per EDF's hours-this change did not occur back in March when we put our clocks forward. I can't tell you when this started-I only noticed this yesterday, the day after my two new heaters were installed-the only reason I spotted this is because my new radiators have a display on the front so it's very obvious when it has power/when it's on.

Thank you.

 

[brianmoooore]

What do you have controlling the off peak supply times? Time switch, tele switch (radio time signal) or something more modern?

 

[Psych1965]

What do you have controlling the off peak supply times? Time switch, tele switch (radio time signal) or something more modern?

Hi Brian-thank you for asking! The exact words from the Complex Meter Team at EDF were (by email):

"One of these circuits (the Power Circuit) provides power 24 hours a day to your sockets lights etc. This circuit has cheaper rate electricity overnight from 23:30-06:30, all other hours are billed at the higher rate.

The second circuit (the Heating Circuit) is likely to have your heating and possibly your hot water connected to it. This circuit provides 9 hours per day of Off-peak power during the following times:

Heating 5+2 hours between 2000-0730 & 2 hours between 1300-1600

We do not have more specific details for the times on this circuit as they are controlled by a Radio Tele-switch and are Dynamic (can change).

All power used on the Heating Circuit is charged at the Lower rate.


But then they followed that email up with another email, the day after, with:

I have done a bit more digging regarding the Heating (Off-peak) part of your Economy 9 meter and can provide some more specific times for when the meter is on supply.

The hours are:

Off peak heating (circuit): 10pm-midnight, 2am-5am, 5.30am-7.30am and 1.30pm-3.30pm (a total of 9 hours)

As confirmed on the previous email the Cheaper rate hours on your Power (24hr) side of the meter are: 23:30-06:30.

One thing to consider as well, is that power is only supplied to the heating circuit during the stated hours, and that all power used on the Heating circuit is charged at the lower rate.

Which is why I am left wondering why my "Heating" circuit is kicking in an hour earlier than the hours stated above?

Even if the hours above are not 100% accurate/reliable, EDF did say:

Heating 5+2 hours between 2000-0730 & 2 hours between 1300-1600

But my water tank "kicked in" (it's on the Heating circuit)...at 12:30PM yesterday (and shut off at 2:30PM). So even if EDF's specific hours (that they subsequently provided me) are off a bit, they claimed that the Heating circuit should kick in anytime between 1:00-4:00PM. But mine kicked in at 12:30. Does this make any sense to you?

I'm wondering how often the Heating Circuit might do this, i.e., change the time is turns on and then off-mainly because both my water tank and my new radiators have timers and I have set the timer on my water tank to come on during the off peak hours-to benefit from the cheap rate electricity. But if I have it set from 1:30-3:30, and in fact it recently started coming on at 12:30 (and shutting down at 2:30)...it's only heating my water for an hour (1:30-2:30), as opposed to 1:30-3:30. I will have to adjust the times that I have set on my timer, but first I'd like to know what might explain why the appliances connected to this Heating circuit are coming on an hour earlier than the hours stated by EFD?

Thanks a million, Brian-if you are able to shed any light on this for me.

 

[Psych1965]

To all the electricians out there who understand the Economy 9 tariff: I live in a flat that has an Economy 9 tariff (Off Peak electricity at certain set times of day-EDF control these times of day). My Off Peak circuit is my Heating circuit and my Peak circuit is my Power circuit.

I was advised by EDF that the Off-Peak supply turns on at the following times: 1:30-3:30; 10:00PM-midnight, 2am-5am, and 5.30am-7.30am (a total of 9 hours). This is what I had observed until the last couple of days-for example, this afternoon, the red light on my water tank (which is connected to the off peak supply) came on at 12:30 (and not 1:30PM) and the two radiators that I had installed on Thursday also came on at 12:30 (the supply came on) instead of at 1:30.

I had an electrician here on Thursday who replaced my old storage heaters with new electric radiators. He said he had to "reconfigure" my fuseboard. Is it possible that whatever he did has changed the times that supply energy to my off peak sockets? This doesn't make sense to me.

Last night I also noticed that my bedroom radiator (which is connected to the off-peak (also called heating circuit, as opposed to power circuit) was on at 9:15PM-suggesting it came on at 9:00PM (instead of at 10:00PM as EDF had advised).

EDF used to have a Complex Meter Team until a few months ago-it was that team who provided me with the hours for the Off Peak supply.

I am concerned because I have a timer connected to my water tank such that my water is supposed to warm up between 1:30-3:30PM and at other times throughout the night (as per to EDF's timings). But if EDF have changed their Off Peak timings, should I be changing the times I have set on my timer, so that I am heating water at the off peak time? I actually don't think so since the timer will go off when EDF's Off Peak hour "stops" so if in fact they have changed the timings from 1:39-3:30 to 12:3-2:30-it should shut off automatically at 2:30PM. My timer is due to come on at 1:30 and shut off at 1:30 but EDF have clearly changed the times that the Off Peak supply comes on and off.

So, two questions really: the above Q. in bold and the Q. above in bold re-my electrician and my fusebox. I can't understand why the times have changed-surely these are controlled by EDF, no?

Please can someone advise? Just to add: I don't think this is to do with Daylight Savings Time/British Summer time-because until recently, the times that my Off peak sockets were coming on were as per EDF's hours-this change did not occur back in March when we put our clocks forward. I can't tell you when this started-I only noticed this yesterday, the day after my two new heaters were installed-the only reason I spotted this is because my new radiators have a display on the front so it's very obvious when it has power/when it's on.

Thank you.

I just noticed a few typos in my original post which I can't seem to edit. I've fixed the typos in red below. This paragraph should read:

I am concerned because I have a timer connected to my water tank such that my water is supposed to warm up between 1:30-3:30PM and at other times throughout the night (as per to EDF's timings). But if EDF have changed their Off Peak timings, should I be changing the times I have set on my timer, so that I am heating water at the off peak time? I actually don't think so since the timer will go off when EDF's Off Peak hour "stops" so if in fact they have changed the timings from 1:30-3:30 to 12:30-2:30-it should shut off automatically at 2:30PM. My timer is due to come on at 1:30 and shut off at 3:30 but EDF have clearly changed the times that the Off Peak supply comes on and off.

 

[littlespark]

a few things that might need clarified.

Check ALL your electric is cheaper rate off peak… not just the heater circuits. (Which I think you have done)
There were systems in the past that had 3-rate tariffs, for general power, overnight heating and 24hour heating.

All teleswitches will come on at slightly different times, to not introduce a massive surge across the country at one moment. Could be 5 or 10 minutes after or before.
They may not change during GMT/BST changing


Electric radiators may need a 24hour supply, so the reconfiguration at the fuse boards might have been moving the circuits from the off peak to general board…. Or taking the entire heating board off the switched supply.

Can we get a photograph of your boards…. Showing the teleswitch, meter and boards… so we can maybe understand how it’s been connected.

We may find nothing is switched with the teleswitch now, but the change in rate.

 

[Psych1965]

a few things that might need clarified.

Check ALL your electric is cheaper rate off peak… not just the heater circuits. (Which I think you have done)
There were systems in the past that had 3-rate tariffs, for general power, overnight heating and 24hour heating.

All teleswitches will come on at slightly different times, to not introduce a massive surge across the country at one moment. Could be 5 or 10 minutes after or before.
They may not change during GMT/BST changing


Electric radiators may need a 24hour supply, so the reconfiguration at the fuse boards might have been moving the circuits from the off peak to general board…. Or taking the entire heating board off the switched supply.

Can we get a photograph of your boards…. Showing the teleswitch, meter and boards… so we can maybe understand how it’s been connected.

We may find nothing is switched with the teleswitch now, but the change in rate.

Hi Littlespark-thank you for the above. When you say you'd like a photo of the boards-do you mean the front of the board (that I can see) or inside the board? If you need a photo of the inside-I'd need to wait for my electrician to return (which he will be doing hopefully this week)-I don't know how to remove the cover and don't want to do that unsupervised.

 

[Psych1965]

a few things that might need clarified.

Check ALL your electric is cheaper rate off peak… not just the heater circuits. (Which I think you have done)
There were systems in the past that had 3-rate tariffs, for general power, overnight heating and 24hour heating.

All teleswitches will come on at slightly different times, to not introduce a massive surge across the country at one moment. Could be 5 or 10 minutes after or before.
They may not change during GMT/BST changing


Electric radiators may need a 24hour supply, so the reconfiguration at the fuse boards might have been moving the circuits from the off peak to general board…. Or taking the entire heating board off the switched supply.

Can we get a photograph of your boards…. Showing the teleswitch, meter and boards… so we can maybe understand how it’s been connected.

We may find nothing is switched with the teleswitch now, but the change in rate.

I meant to address this bit:

"Electric radiators may need a 24hour supply, so the reconfiguration at the fuse boards might have been moving the circuits from the off peak to general board…. Or taking the entire heating board off the switched supply".

I am going to ask my electrician this week why he had to reconfigure my board-I'd also like a written report/certificate which I haven't received yet-he's away this weekend. I don't know if electric radiators do need a 24-hour supply-I know that 2 of mine are now on the heating circuit-which is fine for me. One of my old ones was on the power circuit and he said that this new one, that replaced that one-also has to remain on the power circuit-I can't recall the reason he gave but he said that he can't put this one heater on the off peak supply-he suggested that if he were to do that, then all other sockets in this room would also have to be on the Off Peak supply-which I wouldn't want because I don't want to the power to my laptop, for example, going on and off depending on time of day.

 

[Psych1965]

a few things that might need clarified.

Check ALL your electric is cheaper rate off peak… not just the heater circuits. (Which I think you have done)
There were systems in the past that had 3-rate tariffs, for general power, overnight heating and 24hour heating.

All teleswitches will come on at slightly different times, to not introduce a massive surge across the country at one moment. Could be 5 or 10 minutes after or before.
They may not change during GMT/BST changing


Electric radiators may need a 24hour supply, so the reconfiguration at the fuse boards might have been moving the circuits from the off peak to general board…. Or taking the entire heating board off the switched supply.

Can we get a photograph of your boards…. Showing the teleswitch, meter and boards… so we can maybe understand how it’s been connected.

We may find nothing is switched with the teleswitch now, but the change in rate.

And re-:

"All teleswitches will come on at slightly different times, to not introduce a massive surge across the country at one moment. Could be 5 or 10 minutes after or before".

I hear you, but my Off Peak supply is coming on one hour before the time that EDF gave. Surely that is quite a big difference? I've also emailed EDF so hopefully somebody might be able to explain why my Off Peak is coming on an hour earlier than the times they stated.

 

[littlespark]

No covers off… just a picture so that we might be able to see which big cables run between the meters, teleswitch and the boards.

Electric radiators work different to storage heaters. They need an instant-on heat, and maybe a built in timer…. Whereas storage heaters build up heat during the night into the bricks, and release during the day.

The radiators may have some heat retention material inside, but not to the extent of storage bricks.

 

[Psych1965]

No covers off… just a picture so that we might be able to see which big cables run between the meters, teleswitch and the boards.

Electric radiators work different to storage heaters. They need an instant-on heat, and maybe a built in timer…. Whereas storage heaters build up heat during the night into the bricks, and release during the day.

The radiators may have some heat retention material inside, but not to the extent of storage bricks.

Thank you, and I hear you on the difference between an electric versus storage heater. I understand the difference between the two but am not sure that has anything to do with my original query? The electric radiators that I now have take 30 mins. or so to warm up, but they retain the heat for around 30 mins. after they are turned off. They are Geo Dry Stone electric radiators. They do have a built in timer, but you can also turn them on manually, and via an App (or via the control directly on the radiator). Re-the fuseboard-I'm afraid I need to wait until my electrician returns to get a photo.

 

[Psych1965]

Hi Littlespark-thank you for the above. When you say you'd like a photo of the boards-do you mean the front of the board (that I can see) or inside the board? If you need a photo of the inside-I'd need to wait for my electrician to return (which he will be doing hopefully this week)-I don't know how to remove the cover and don't want to do that unsupervised.

Hi again-just picking up on:

"Check ALL your electric is cheaper rate off peak… not just the heater circuits. (Which I think you have done)
There were systems in the past that had 3-rate tariffs, for general power, overnight heating and 24hour heating".

I know for certain that not all my electric is on the Off Peak supply-some of my sockets are 24/7 "power" sockets-they are on a different supply/tariff to my Off Peak. For example, my hair dryer, laptop, TV etc.-they are all on the 24/7 circuit (which incidentally is charged on the cheap rate from 11:30PM-6:30AM). I do need Power sockets that are on 24/7 so I wouldn't want all of my electricity to be on the Off Peak supply-surely not? Have I misunderstood what you were saying?

 

[Psych1965]

I meant to address this bit:

"Electric radiators may need a 24hour supply, so the reconfiguration at the fuse boards might have been moving the circuits from the off peak to general board…. Or taking the entire heating board off the switched supply".

I am going to ask my electrician this week why he had to reconfigure my board-I'd also like a written report/certificate which I haven't received yet-he's away this weekend. I don't know if electric radiators do need a 24-hour supply-I know that 2 of mine are now on the heating circuit-which is fine for me. One of my old ones was on the power circuit and he said that this new one, that replaced that one-also has to remain on the power circuit-I can't recall the reason he gave but he said that he can't put this one heater on the off peak supply-he suggested that if he were to do that, then all other sockets in this room would also have to be on the Off Peak supply-which I wouldn't want because I don't want to the power to my laptop, for example, going on and off depending on time of day.

Hi again-and just picking up on this:

"Electric radiators may need a 24hour supply, so the reconfiguration at the fuse boards might have been moving the circuits from the off peak to general board…. Or taking the entire heating board off the switched supply".

I don't think they do need a 24 hour supply-at least the manufacturer (who I've spoken to many times and who know that I am on an Economy 9 tariff) haven't advised me to connect with to my Power circuit. And we've also tested that they do work when on the Heating circuit (when there is supply to it)-but you've made me wonder...if my new heaters are on the Off Peak supply...can I set the timer on them, or will the fact that the supply comes on and off (at EDF's set times) alter/affect the timer on the heaters?

I haven't decided whether I want to set the timer or not but that does make me wonder! I am going to speak to the manufacturer on Monday and ask that Q! In other words, would the built in timer mechanism retain it's "data" if I programme it to come on at a certain time-and between now and that time-the supply gets turned off....will the heater's built in mechanism remember that the timer has been set? Good point, Littlespark. I'm going to need to check this out.

I'm popping out for a few hours so apologies if further replies are not immediate. Thank you for your input thus far.

Oh! Hold on. I just figured something out-two of my heaters are on the Power Circuit and two are on the Off Peak circuit-I wouldn't have reason to put the Off Peak circuit heaters on a timer really....because when they do come on-they are coming on at the cheaper rate (that is the whole purpose of the Heating/Off Peak Circuit). It is more likely that I would use the timer on the heaters that are on the Peak Supply/Power supply....I get cheap rate electricity from 11:30PM until 6:30AM (on the power supply) so my Q. for you is this: what is your reasoning for suggesting that all heaters are on the Off Peak supply? I hope I'm not mistaken-is that what you are suggesting....that they are all on the Off Peak supply? If I do it that way then I won't have the option of using any of them at other times in the day (if it's chilly). In fact one of my heaters cannot be moved to an Off Peak supply and I'm OK with it being on the Power supply-it's the one in my home office and that room doesn't get that cold. OK-I'm off for a few hours-I hope you have a good Sunday.

 

[brianmoooore]

There will be changes made to your supply in the near future, whatever your off peak times are now. The radio signal that controls the tele switch is due to be turned off in the near future, and I would have expected that you would have already received letters or emails from your supplier regarding this.
It was originally scheduled to be turned off last year, but this was delayed, and I think, delayed again.

 

[Avo Mk8]

There seems to be a fundamental mis-match between the original architecture of the supply - one board switching power to heating and water at E9 cheap rate times (including daytime periods), and one board for rest of house that also gives cheap rate at night, and the use now of electric radiators that have a single mains connection designed for connection to a permanent 24 hour supply (but with internal timer).
With old 'dumb' storage heaters it was fine to just connect them to a supply that comes on at night, and they did the job.
With 'smart' new heaters and radiators, they generally require a 24 hour maintained supply to run the electronics, timer etc. The Haverland geo-dry radiators have a single mains lead and appear to require a 24 hour supply, so presumably they have now been wired to the rest of house supply, so you would not benefit from the E9 daytime periods of heating (which is needed with radiators, but not with storage heaters)

I feel this needs a serious look into whether the radiator model you have is actually the best for your particular 2-CU supply arrangement.

 

[littlespark]

This is what I suggested you confirm. Depending on the system.

One system of off peak heating is that ONLY the storage heaters were on low tariff, ONLY when they were turned on through timeclock or teleswitch. General lighting and power was on daytime rate all the time.

A different system turned on the storage heaters, ALL electric was on a cheaper rate overnight…. Including power.
That would be the old E7 where people would set timers on their washing machines so they would run early morning on a cheaper rate and be ready for when everyone got up.

Now you have heaters coming off socket circuits, and possibly others being on 24hr supply instead of overnight cheaper rate (because the electrician moved the circuits from the off peak board onto the general) then all that may be on a high rate now.

We’re not sure yet how it’s all been done… but it might be that nothing is coming off the cheaper rate now, so there’s no need to have it.

If it’s like the second system I suggested above, then everything is cheap rate overnight, whatever board it is coming from.


Do you know how to read your meter? Ie you could check if the cheaper reading is going up at all when your heaters are on now.