Hello. Am a competent electrician - been taught by qualified electricians, but have no qualifications myself. I will be doing a complete rewire for a friend in Dunstable/Luton area and was wondering if it was more worthwhile to get a NICEIC/equivalent rated electrician in to produce an EIC or to get in LABC. I have an mft and can do all the tests etc but obviously would prefer a NIC guy to sign it off. Would someone do this for me?? and what sort of price.
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Electrician Jobs EIC issue................................
- Thread starter Barnaby Stedman
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You’d be lucky be better getting a spark in a scheme to help you with the job. Would you sign off something someone else had done?
I’m really sorry but how can you class yourself as competent a if your competence has never been assessed (not saying your not competent btw)
I’m really sorry but how can you class yourself as competent a if your competence has never been assessed (not saying your not competent btw)
Yes I can totally agree with you. There is a difference between a DIYer and a competent unqualified person. Price is the main issue why im doing it and not getting a spark in the scheme in.
well they seem happy to come and do it but could charge up to £700 and was wondering if a spark could test and sign off for cheaper - i know of it being done before
Search this forum. This question gets asked everyday. Here's one from a member asking about his first assessment;
Stroma assessment coming up. - https://www.electriciansforums.co.uk/threads/stroma-assessment-coming-up.172236/
Stroma assessment coming up. - https://www.electriciansforums.co.uk/threads/stroma-assessment-coming-up.172236/
I agree - but im not really asking whether it can be done, I am asking whether electricians are ready to do this sort of thing
Personally I wouldn’t ever sign of anyone else’s work qualified, competent or superspark most decent sparkies wouldn’t either IMHO
Ok interesting. Do you think you could give me some reasons why you wouldnt?
If you read what is required for an EIC the certifier must have either constructed the installation or been present to ensure compliance signing it off would be misleading at best and at worst would mean taking the derry should something go wrong.... I’ve seen enough rough stuff done by so called professional electricians that have quals and are members of schemes to put me off ever signing off anyone else’s work
Hello Barnaby why don't you put yourself through college and get some qualifications.
This is not a dig at you personally so please don’t take it that way. Most sparks have seen some real crap work done by alleged competent qualified electricians let alone unqualified ones.
So imagine something goes pear shaped later, in a court of law the judge would crucify a qualified accredited spark for passing someone else work who is not in anyway qualified.
Not many would sign that off without physically seeing all cables, connections, joins cpc etc etc and I do not just mean the cables that pop out the wall I mean the cables in the wall as well.
Whilst I sympathise with you, acreditation is not easy to get and costs a spark a lot of time, money and effort why would he risk his to enable a non qualified person to carry out work they are not qualified to do.
So imagine something goes pear shaped later, in a court of law the judge would crucify a qualified accredited spark for passing someone else work who is not in anyway qualified.
Not many would sign that off without physically seeing all cables, connections, joins cpc etc etc and I do not just mean the cables that pop out the wall I mean the cables in the wall as well.
Whilst I sympathise with you, acreditation is not easy to get and costs a spark a lot of time, money and effort why would he risk his to enable a non qualified person to carry out work they are not qualified to do.
I dunno, it happens all the time with large, even small companies.
Somebody at the company designs it and signs. Some of the companies employees install it, including subbies, QS will sign for that without even turning up. Then somebody will test it, somebody back in the office inputs the results. Might even sign for it
Somebody at the company designs it and signs. Some of the companies employees install it, including subbies, QS will sign for that without even turning up. Then somebody will test it, somebody back in the office inputs the results. Might even sign for it
This scenario is what the 3rd Party notification scheme is for.
Contact Stroma or Napit who will inform you which of their members local to you are authorised under the scheme.
You will meet, agree the design, have the work monitored and then tested and notified at the end achieving full part P compliance
Contact Stroma or Napit who will inform you which of their members local to you are authorised under the scheme.
You will meet, agree the design, have the work monitored and then tested and notified at the end achieving full part P compliance
I take these posts as........if somebody is at a stage where they are considering and or have started rewiring an entire house they know a little about electrical installation, at least in a domestic setting, which means they already know the answer to they question but are just looking for a cheap way out......or am I being cynical 
W
Wilko
Possibly both cynical and correct .
.Well to explain the situation - it is definitely not to base a business model on - if i were to set up as a domestic electrician then of course i would become registered and qualified etc etc... dont worry I do know and have seen the dangers of bad electrics. This 3rd party notification scheme seems to be perhaps what I am looking for - could anybody explain in any more detail as to what this is?
And btw I havent got the time to waste at college - although I would like to spend time gaining qualifications nothing really justifies the time or money spent to be honest.
And btw I havent got the time to waste at college - although I would like to spend time gaining qualifications nothing really justifies the time or money spent to be honest.
S
Silly Sausage
You're in a bit of a Catch 22 there then!
And unless you're an exceptional individual, like Einstein for example, you need the qualifications to play 'The Game'.
Need to ask @Vortigern, think he's registered as one?
I do recall though, when Vortigern previously responded on not a dissimilar thread, his charges for such a service.
T
The Ghost
Thanks for the prompt @Midwest. I can say that it appears you have not gone ahead and done the work which allows third party notification. I am registered with Stroma for third party notification. Thay are quite strict on how it works and it does mean you have to be in at the design stage and oversee the project and test while installing and produce the EIC. They have a special Third party certificate for this which gets scrutinised by some boffins I suppose at Stroma and then possibly approved. Unfortunately your requirements exclude me as while I am reassuringly expensive, I resigned my membership from NICEIC as I don't get on with them. And NICEIC do not allow third party notification so you really are up the creek there without a paddle as they say. So you will have to contact building control and they will send their electrician who will no doubt be a member of NICEIC (ironically a third party notification in all but name!) and then a large bill for you. But on the good side it would be cheaper than me.
Going back to the beginning again; whilst there is a significant gain to be mentored by experienced persons in a particular trade, those electricians, I suspect, have no knowledge on how a person should be trained, or to the technical aspects of that trade should be consumed & absorbed.
In short you can't police yourself in training, and who tests you to see if you've qualified in that area. My Dad help teach me to drive, but an examiner judicator that.
If your charging for your services, do you not think you should have some 'qualifications'?
If your charging for your services, do you not think you should have some 'qualifications'?[/QUOTE]
Yes I agree - I may not necessarily charge any more than materials - but as a busy person nothing in my life justifies spending such time and money at college instead of earning. I totally agree that this is they way to go if you want to be a sparky as a job though.
Yes I agree - I may not necessarily charge any more than materials - but as a busy person nothing in my life justifies spending such time and money at college instead of earning. I totally agree that this is they way to go if you want to be a sparky as a job though.
OK - well thanks for the advice - I will go out and speak to a few sparkys and see how it goes
Im now going to throw my hat in to the ring , this third party testing how can storma and nitpick say to the sparks you can test it ,what about the insurances for it , would any body asking for there own insurance to cover it or does the third party insurances cover it considering they are testing it .
I think that you will find that Sparkys can and will certify other peoples works, and it is considered to be compliant.
I have taken the choice to e able to do these, but they are quite more involved, and not necessarily cheap.
The paper work is a lot longer.
I will give you an example of why this needs to be available.
You employ an electrician to rewire your house, and he basically completes it, without any certs.....But he goes bankrupt and cannot complete the job !
So what does the customer do?
If you ask the LABC (in my experience) they will accept an EICR from another qualified Sparky.........or from me an EIC third party....( similar tests etc)
You dont have many options to be fair ! LABC dont have qualified Sparkys on their books normally, but sub it out to the likes of us !
I have taken the choice to e able to do these, but they are quite more involved, and not necessarily cheap.
The paper work is a lot longer.
I will give you an example of why this needs to be available.
You employ an electrician to rewire your house, and he basically completes it, without any certs.....But he goes bankrupt and cannot complete the job !
So what does the customer do?
If you ask the LABC (in my experience) they will accept an EICR from another qualified Sparky.........or from me an EIC third party....( similar tests etc)
You dont have many options to be fair ! LABC dont have qualified Sparkys on their books normally, but sub it out to the likes of us !
I wired my Scottish cottage and new self-built extension without realising the changes in rules since I was up-to-date qualified back in the 1990s. I did eventually manage to find a senior electrician / electrical contractor (plus apprentice) who did sign it off, but he had to open EVERY socket, switch and light-rose and check the wiring, as well as completing all the required tests. He commented how good it all was, but said that he had had to check everything (including my design) as he was effectively certifying the whole installation. I had used FP200 Gold screened wire which meant he was not too worried about any cable damage that might had occurred but was out of sight as it has a complete conductive sheath inside the outer insulation. I can understand why the LPA may "charge up to £700". It is a lot of work to check another person's electrical rewire properly as required.
Now I tell everyone to just get an up-to-date- qualified electrician in who can do the whole job and sign it off. It will be cheaper in the end.
Now I tell everyone to just get an up-to-date- qualified electrician in who can do the whole job and sign it off. It will be cheaper in the end.
Just about sums up our constant battle with the "you are too expensive" cheap builder brigade! Thank you
How can someone be competent with no qualifications? ??
a guy may have had years of experience working with electricians but no paper quals. he may still be competent. on the other hand, i know several who have all the necessary paper quals., but i'd not trust them to wire a plug.
True……..but, you say, what does the customer do? Have you ever done this in a situation when someone 'unqualified' has, knowingly, done the job on his own property?
eg. Show us evidence of previous contractor.
I agree completely! The current "qualification" system is not fit for purpose. It should be essential to have a modern apprenticeship as well as college training as part of the overall approvals package. In my opinion, you need at least a couple of years "on the job" experience overseen by a qualified and well experienced electrician before you should be allowed "out on your own". I know 'technical college' lecturers who have told me "if they fail first time, we go through the questions so they pass on their second attempt". That is because of college "success ratings" being seen as the most important factor. You have better assessment at the "professional engineer" level (e.g. Chartered Engineer, C.Eng that can follow after several years "on the job" after obtaining an engineering degree) and at some of the modern engineering technician level qualifications where you need ongoing supervision and assessment reporting before you can fully qualify.
That's life, these days. We've all got to put up with such crap. Said it many times.....trade is falling apart....could say it's imploding, bringing itself down.
Before anyone get riled at my comments, remember I'm incredibly grateful to this form and worked hard to be worthy of the help you guys freely offer.
Valid points in all of the previous posts BUT in framing what the situation should be we are in danger of never having any workable solution. Imagine the guy or gal who spends a couple of years on site learning from all the trades and getting a sold back ground in tool handling then magics up £6 - 12 grand in college fees plus lost wages. a year or two later, s/he then hits the market to be used as a van-loader / tea maker / goffer before being seen to have served his time and take his rightful place in the right hand van-seat.
..And, don't look to employers and shout "apprenticeship"! They simply will not stump up the front money from training regardless of age, sex or experience. They will either use the enthusiastic newby as cheap labour or pull in cheap, fully trained skills from overseas - regardless of the "B" word. Don't believe me - look at nursing in the NHS.
At risk of being stoned with a hail of failed 18v batteries. Less of the "better in the past" thoughts and more acknowledgement of the real world plus sacking the various organisations that do nothing and dip the hard worked pockets of all tradesman, would do wonders for the industry and job I worked hard to join and am still incredibly proud to be part of.
I can see a "Life of Brian" stoning video would fit in nicely right here
Valid points in all of the previous posts BUT in framing what the situation should be we are in danger of never having any workable solution. Imagine the guy or gal who spends a couple of years on site learning from all the trades and getting a sold back ground in tool handling then magics up £6 - 12 grand in college fees plus lost wages. a year or two later, s/he then hits the market to be used as a van-loader / tea maker / goffer before being seen to have served his time and take his rightful place in the right hand van-seat.
..And, don't look to employers and shout "apprenticeship"! They simply will not stump up the front money from training regardless of age, sex or experience. They will either use the enthusiastic newby as cheap labour or pull in cheap, fully trained skills from overseas - regardless of the "B" word. Don't believe me - look at nursing in the NHS.
At risk of being stoned with a hail of failed 18v batteries. Less of the "better in the past" thoughts and more acknowledgement of the real world plus sacking the various organisations that do nothing and dip the hard worked pockets of all tradesman, would do wonders for the industry and job I worked hard to join and am still incredibly proud to be part of.
I can see a "Life of Brian" stoning video would fit in nicely right here
What you say is sometimes true. However, we should not dismiss modern apprenticeships. The EITB support a range of schemes.Before anyone get riled at my comments, remember I'm incredibly grateful to this form and worked hard to be worthy of the help you guys freely offer.
Valid points in all of the previous posts BUT in framing what the situation should be we are in danger of never having any workable solution. Imagine the guy or gal who spends a couple of years on site learning from all the trades and getting a sold back ground in tool handling then magics up £6 - 12 grand in college fees plus lost wages. a year or two later, s/he then hits the market to be used as a van-loader / tea maker / goffer before being seen to have served his time and take his rightful place in the right hand van-seat.
..And, don't look to employers and shout "apprenticeship"! They simply will not stump up the front money from training regardless of age, sex or experience. They will either use the enthusiastic newby as cheap labour or pull in cheap, fully trained skills from overseas - regardless of the "B" word. Don't believe me - look at nursing in the NHS.
At risk of being stoned with a hail of failed 18v batteries. Less of the "better in the past" thoughts and more acknowledgement of the real world plus sacking the various organisations that do nothing and dip the hard worked pockets of all tradesman, would do wonders for the industry and job I worked hard to join and am still incredibly proud to be part of.
I can see a "Life of Brian" stoning video would fit in nicely right here
Home Page - ECITB - https://www.ecitb.org.uk/
The apprentice should not have to pay anything or very little, and probably buy their own tools. In regard to training, we seem to have lost pride in a good job done well and the electrical installation and repair market is very broken up by competing professional groups and poor-quality short-course training companies. The Wiring Regs are getting over-regulated and the training under-organised under-regulated and under-funded.
Yes, I am a grumpy old git at times, too!
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