Eicr question

[rapidrich]

If a shower was fitted 15 years back and had no rcd what cat would it be on a eicr

 

[martinxxxxxx]

On my reports I will only put things that can be justified by the industry advice or the regs. I will be able to say where an opinion came from. I think this is important myself.


You Said
Its code 3 regardless of bathroom bonding or not.
From the ESC EICR guidlines giving examples of C3's ;

​

But the document you referred to said

Absence of RCD protection for circuits of a
location containing a bath or shower where
satisfactory supplementary bonding is present

Good greif man if you are gonna be arsed to look it up - quote it right too!

 

[somersetsparks]

I would be wound up if someone gave a c2 to my non rcd'd shower. As I say it was compliant to install up until 4 years ago, it's not 'potentially dangerous'. That's just drumming for work imo Supplementary bonding is an adequate.
What did we do before these wonder rcd's came about!

 

[martinxxxxxx]

Yes but do you rent your house out?
If you did the Landlord and Tenant Act plus the insurance for letting might make you feel it is better to have the place kept to the latest editions of the wiring regs. Professional landlords in my experience want to be watertight when it comes to insurance

 

[martinxxxxxx]

What did we do before these wonder rcd's came about!

Some people died - so they made them put them on the lawnmowers - then the downstairs, then the upstairs then the lights.
Some call it progress others wonder if health and safety hasn't gone mad - but they are mostly those who have not lost loved ones to electrical accidents.

 

[Des 56]

Rcds are nice little items for giving that little bit of extra back up (TT excepted), however, well constructed and maintained electrical systems are the best target

 

[martinxxxxxx]

Rcds are nice little items for giving that little bit of extra back up (TT excepted), however, well constructed and maintained electrical systems are the best target

I think the (TT Excepted) gives the game away here.
They provide additional protection against electric shocks - over and above what even the best designed electrical system can achieve without them.
They are not an excuse for poor design, however if main bonding is in place, and the system is properly maintained and constructed, it is well accepted that supplementary bonding may be omitted.
That is the point of having the test of whether RCD is a required in the latest regs page 199, 701.415.2

If you are auguring that the we should return to the 15th editions or something - actually that's not what you are suggesting is it?

 

[GLENNSPARK]

That's what I've all ways thought but a sparky has gone to do some wrk there and said it should be cat 2

it int a 2....you base an EICR on what was compliant AT THE TIME OF INSTALL....

 

[martinxxxxxx]

I am guessing you have not read any of the responses so far

But you are correct as long as it fulfils the requirements of 701.415.2

 

[dagrat]

I agree with martinxxxx here. The best practice guide recommends that where there is no rcd protection and no supplementary bonding then it definitely is a C2.
But remember to carry out a continuity test to check whether there is supplementary bonding or not.

Yes the test is carried out to check compliance with regs at time of install and anything which is not to current regs is a C3. However don't forget that the requirement for supplementary bonding in the bathroom was still a requirement in the previous editions of Bs 7671

 

[somersetsparks]

Lets be clear, on an EICR.

Lack of RCD protection to a circuit in the bathroom attracts a C3 providing proper supplementary bonding is in place
Lack of RCD protection to a circuit in the bathroom attracts a C2 if no supplementary bonding is in place
Cables buried above 50mm in a Wall attract C3

I always check supplementary bonding is proper and covers all points including radiators etc. if necessary - Readings should be 0.05 or below.

So a bathroom wired to the 16th could easily attract 4 C3's

A C2 for a shower is over zealous if supplementary bonding is in place.
I have worked testing for a social landlord, they would never ask for RCDS on all showers regardless, the cost could be huge for virtually no gain in safety. They will insist on enclosed bathroom fittings, even if outside of zones.

 

[martinxxxxxx]

Lets be clear, on an EICR.

Lack of RCD protection to a circuit in the bathroom attracts a C3 providing proper supplementary bonding is in place
Lack of RCD protection to a circuit in the bathroom attracts a C2 if no supplementary bonding is in place
Cables buried above 50mm in a Wall attract C3

I always check supplementary bonding is proper and covers all points including radiators etc. if necessary - Readings should be 0.05 or below.

So a bathroom wired to the 16th could easily attract 4 C3's

Correct
Supplementary Bonding
Supplementary bonding has been a significant feature of the 16th edition of BS 7671 but this has now changed with the introduction of the 17th edition.
For new installations or alterations / additions in a location containing a bath or shower, supplementary bonding will not be required if:
 The disconnection times required by Section 411 of BS 7671 are met, and
 All circuits are protected by RCD’s having the characteristics required by 415.1.1, and
 The building has protective equipotential bonding in accordance with 411.3.1.2, and
 All extraneous-conductive parts of the location are effectively connected to the protective bonding. (See note below)
Note: Regulation 415.2.2 states that where doubt exists regarding the effectiveness of supplementary equipotential bonding, it shall be confirmed that the resistance R between simultaneously accessible conductive parts and extraneous conductive parts fulfils the following condition:
R ≤ 50V  a for a.c. systems
By example, using a 30mA RCD (Required by 415.1.1)
R ≤ 50V  30mA = 1667 ohms
Where supplementary bonding is required, Regulation 701.415.2 requires that the protective conductor (cpc) of each circuit entering the room containing a bath or shower, be connected to the extraneous-conductive parts by local supplementary equipotential bonding conductors complying with Regulation group 544.2.
This is carried out to prevent the occurrence of voltages between any such parts being of such magnitude as could cause danger of electric shock.
Automatic disconnection of supply
Where the protective measure ‘automatic disconnection of supply’ is used, additional protection by a residual current device, with a rated residual operating current not exceeding 30mA is required for all circuits in locations containing a bath or shower.
Practically this means that every circuit entering a bathroom should be protected by an RCD with a rated residual operating current not exceeding 30mA. Careful consideration should be given to how circuits are divided, to eliminate the problems with unwanted tripping of RCD’s.
SUMMARY
With a Continuity tester on the Ohms setting, test between each metal pipe that enters the bathroom (Extraneous conductive parts) and the circuit protective conductor (cpc) of each electrical circuit in the bathroom.
If the reading obtained is less than 1667ohms and all circuits are protected by 30mA RCD’s then no Supplementary Bonding is required.
If any of the above requirements cannot be met, Supplementary Bonding must be installed.