Electric car chargers

[pirate]

Just wondered if anyone has seen the advert for the new Fiat 500E...
If you read the small print at the bottom it says you can charge it enough in a few minutes to do 30 miles, using an 84kw charger...probably not a domestic installation then...
However, on a 13A plug it only takes 19 hours to charge...
There's a few questions in my mind about this, but please say what you think.

 

[Zerax]

I think the lack of common sense is actually what is blindly driving the change to EV's

It's certainly a matter of common sense.

The simple fact is... that even with the current charging network (which is woeful) and with the existing battery technology (it's changing all the time, with solid state batteries about to bring the next step change) EVs would make sense for the majority of the population.

It's unfortunate that often the whole argument against EVs is based on the example of someone who represents maybe 5% of the population.... We MUST look at the majority ! Nobody is suggesting for one minute that EVs are viable for every single user.

I think during the last EV debate we had on here... someone suggested that because you couldn't drive an EV from the south of France to Preston in one hit... the whole case for EVs was fundamentally flawed ! As if this trip was typical for all users...

The LV network issue is an interesting one... as there are differing 'expert' views about whether or not this is going to be a massive issue. I'm sure there'll be some local ones, but again we need to look at the bigger picture.

 

[nicebutdim]

The simple fact is... that even with the current charging network (which is woeful) and with the existing battery technology (it's changing all the time, with solid state batteries about to bring the next step change) EVs would make sense for the majority of the population.

This will probably be true in the future, but basic financial constraints mean that it most certainly isn't true at this time.

 

[UNG]

It's certainly a matter of common sense.

I'm not sure about that

The simple fact is... that even with the current charging network (which is woeful) and with the existing battery technology (it's changing all the time, with solid state batteries about to bring the next step change) EVs would make sense for the majority of the population.

You must be reading different articles to me, there are very few that are 100% positive and convincing about EV's and come with caveats and those that are give some rise to suggest they lack some truth.
Nobody I know has an average lifestyle all of the time, a spare of the moment long trip in an EV would need far more planning and consideration than one in an ICE vehicle, I could walk out my front door now get in my car and travel to my daughter's place 200 miles away and know it will take me just over 3 hours to get there I doubt I could give any prediction on how long it would take in an EV then an EV would need charging to get home where starting out on a full tank in my car I would get home and still have just over half a tank left
The big one now is fast chargers but in the long term how will the batteries fare and will the expected life of them be degraded by frequent fast charging

It's unfortunate that often the whole argument against EVs is based on the example of someone who represents maybe 5% of the population.... We MUST look at the majority ! Nobody is suggesting for one minute that EVs are viable for every single user.

Viable or not they are being forced on the population whether they like it or not.
Twist it another way for 95% of the work an electrician carries out doesn't need a transit van so why have one when a fiesta van will do

I think during the last EV debate we had on here... someone suggested that because you couldn't drive an EV from the south of France to Preston in one hit... the whole case for EVs was fundamentally flawed ! As if this trip was typical for all users...

Ok so so it is not every week that a long journey is done but if I want to do a journey of 1000 miles plus I would probably need to factor in 3 days rather than one
There are a large number of people who have a daily runabout that is much larger than they need but at weekends they will tow boats, caravans or even a trailer to pick up or dump stuff the last time I looked I think there was only one EV that could tow a trailer of upto 900Kg

The LV network issue is an interesting one... as there are differing 'expert' views about whether or not this is going to be a massive issue. I'm sure there'll be some local ones, but again we need to look at the bigger picture.

You don't need any "expert" views just ask the DNO guys on the ground who have to patch up the LV network every time there is a failure, then you could take a look at the diversity applied to the network with every house assessed at about 3 - 4 Kw it doesn't take a degree in maths to suss out that there may be a BIG problem on the horizon when the cable capacity is assessed. Yes the HV network may be capable but the LV network in places is 80 - 90 years old in times when an electric light bulb was a luxury

Yes I agree we have to look at the bigger picture that with EV's we will have to accept the inconvenience of refueling and the limitations they have

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

Wpd are now running 3 phase on all new connections and in time may stipulate load management on all ev charging installs. They produced an interesting document which i will try and find. 3 phases at 40amps is a lot less strain on network than 1 at 100. Max load..
In time if you have a looped connection removed, you get 3 phase. So a good way of getting a free 3pb head is say you are fitting an ev charger.
Average person needs to charge maybe once a week. I have a customer who charges her Tesla twice.a.month as shes retired and lucky to do 5000 miles a year.

 

[littlespark]

I took a drive from the borders to aviemore, stopped at Kinross services for lunch… could have charged an EV there for half an hour…. Just short of aviemore, my car told me to take a break…. Must have been driving too long…

so if cars are asking you to take a break, and your break is longer than it is now to charge up…. Maybe there will be less accidents.

stopping for an hour or so instead of 5 minutes will just become the new normal

 

[Zerax]

stopping for an hour or so instead of 5 minutes will just become the new normal

I think the expectation if for like 30-40 mins... depending on how much charge you need. There is already a new type of 'service station' appearing that is a large bank of fast chargers with coffee/shops/newstands alongside. So it's just a different way of travelling. I would guess that slowly we'll see the traditional 'petrol station' replaced with these new 'charging stations'. Near where I live, we have 2 Esso garages close to each other... so one of those would make a good 'target' if they can get an adequate supply to it.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

Many arguments here are based on the assumption that EVs should be a drop-in replacement for ICE that should not involve any change in usage method. Whilst manufacturers might like to push that idea to overcome consumer inertia, changes in usage were needed in the transition from horse to ICE and they might be needed again for a realistic transition to widespread adoption of EVs. They might be the lesser of a number of possible changes in user behaviour that might ultimately become necessary if fossil fuel usage is not curtailed.

 

[UNG]

I think the expectation if for like 30-40 mins... depending on how much charge you need. There is already a new type of 'service station' appearing that is a large bank of fast chargers with coffee/shops/newstands alongside. So it's just a different way of travelling. I would guess that slowly we'll see the traditional 'petrol station' replaced with these new 'charging stations'.

EV's are enjoying what might be termed a grace period at the moment where the real cost of running one is distorted with incentives to lure people away from their ICE vehicles, even now the resale cost of a Kw of electricity is questioned and no consideration is given to the capital cost of the equipment to deliver it to the vehicle battery
The problem charging stations will have is demand massively outstripping supply, compare a petrol / diesel station to a charging station and the issue is very obvious when you look at the vehicles per hour using them especially at peak times

Near where I live, we have 2 Esso garages close to each other... so one of those would make a good 'target' if they can get an adequate supply to it.

Given that there would be little or no diversity available for the chargers a charging site would certainly need a substation to get a three phase supply of 1500 - 3000A given what the fast chargers need I would dread to think what that would cost plus the space needed for it, is the multi storey charging station the solution

 

[UNG]

I took a drive from the borders to aviemore, stopped at Kinross services for lunch… could have charged an EV there for half an hour…. Just short of aviemore, my car told me to take a break…. Must have been driving too long…

so if cars are asking you to take a break, and your break is longer than it is now to charge up…. Maybe there will be less accidents.

stopping for an hour or so instead of 5 minutes will just become the new normal

Cars with tachographs what next!!!!

 

[nicebutdim]

EV's are enjoying what might be termed a grace period at the moment where the real cost of running one is distorted with incentives to lure people away from their ICE vehicles

There was a relatively famous tweet doing the rounds that had extolled the relatively low cost of EVs.

The person in question calculated the cost to themselves at $4000 over four years. This was based on various government incentives, subsidised/free charging and high resale value, due to demand far outstripping supply.

There's no doubting the fact that costs will fall dramatically and that charging options will broaden, but the idea of owning an EV is not feasible for a significant number of people at this time. Until the dust settles, it will be difficult to ascertain exactly what costs might be entailed, but it is without doubt that ownership of combustion engined vehicles will become prohibitively expensive. A lot of people are likely to find themselves stuck between a rock and a hard place.

 

[DPG]

EV's are enjoying what might be termed a grace period at the moment where the real cost of running one is distorted with incentives to lure people away from their ICE vehicles, even now the resale cost of a Kw of electricity is questioned and no consideration is given to the capital cost of the equipment to deliver it to the vehicle battery
The problem charging stations will have is demand massively outstripping supply, compare a petrol / diesel station to a charging station and the issue is very obvious when you look at the vehicles per hour using them especially at peak times

Given that there would be little or no diversity available for the chargers a charging site would certainly need a substation to get a three phase supply of 1500 - 3000A given what the fast chargers need I would dread to think what that would cost plus the space needed for it, is the multi storey charging station the solution

You mention the amount of vehicles using petrol filling stations, but don't forget the majority of EV users will charge them at home overnight. So actually less people will need to use stations in the future.

 

[ChrisElectrical88]

Not to sure if it’s been mentioned yet but most of the electric cars only utilise 15kW of the 22kW 3 phase chargers. I believe it’s only the Renault Zoe and one or two others that can actually charge at the full 22kW potential. So a 84kW charger is pretty much useless.

 

[plugsandsparks]

Most EV's i have come across have a built in AC/DC charger to 11KW. The 84KW will be direct DC through the CCS port.

 

[Mike Johnson]

How many charge points are used in town as free parking, not really concerned with the charge rate of the car or if it's fully charged or not, just the free parking, another plus for EV cars. ?

 

[Zerax]

The problem charging stations will have is demand massively outstripping supply, compare a petrol / diesel station to a charging station and the issue is very obvious when you look at the vehicles per hour using them especially at peak times

I think that you're still trying to shoe-horn the day-to-day running of an EV into the same profile of weekly fill-ups with diesel. The two things are not the same.

Imagine if you ran your mobile phone in the same way... expecting to re-charge it once a week !

In reality... EV users will re-charge more frequently in a number of different places/ways. Home/Workplace/Kerbside/Destination/Hotels/Gym car park/Mistress/Pub etc... they will not ALL be reliant on a fixed 'service station' network such as we have for diesel/petrol.

It's all a big change... and constantly developing/improving.