Electrical shower

[Cj24]

Hi Iv been to someone's house who said there shower pull cord sw was smelling of fish so I opened up the pull cord to find the Neutral on the supply side was melting and the copper was all black and the switch was melting as you could see the plastic slightly disformed so the smell was surely the burning of the plastic, I remade connection off and reused the same switch as a temp measure, the guy ordered new sw and was getting back to me but not heard anything then 3 weeks later I get a call saying smells back so Iv been round and changed for new switch but the supply Neutral had started to melt again, any ideas? And do you think it will happen again? It is 8.5kw shower and 10mm cable and it's a short distance from the board do you just think it was a loose connection? As I can't see what else it could be

 

[netblindpaul]

Damien,
An awful lot of points to address, & I don't think I can do them all looking back and fore the post, so I may well miss a few.

Well, the way I read things, you seem to be promoting or at least accepting a reduction in workmanship, considering what you have done recently, I feel that this is below you and fail to see why you are looking to accept this.

I have never suggested that you are a product designer, and FWIW I agree that a LOT of the kit in the market place at the moment is inadequate, that there is no doubt that we will agree on, I can;t see why kit these days is so poor.
I will however reiterate that you are the designer of the installation, thus you have the designers duties under various situations.

The loose connections, were they tight though?
Come on, you are not going to admit that you have had to replace shower isolators that you have fitted because the terminations have come loose! Yes I am joking BTW.
Unfortunately it is impossible to tell once a shower isolator has failed due to overheated connections whether said connections were adequate in the first place.

Oh & the **other** forum is NOT all I ever mention BTW.

I don't want to over complicate everything I merely want to improve the standards of installation and the competence of installers in an ongoing manner.
It seems to have taken a step change backwards recently.


I don't to be honest care about the "NBP haters club", the reason I post and select the threads that I do to post on, are those that I see have a significant possibility of suggesting reduced or lowered standards.

Now, IMHO, to suggest not fitting a shower isolator fits that criteria.

A lot of the other threads on here are laughable, and most are taken care of by the normal crew.
However, as much as you may think that I hate you I don't, if you think that I hated you that much, or, did not have the time of day for you, do you really think I would take the time to debate things with you?

Damien, you do have some good intentions, and good ideas, you just IMHO need to temper them, and, you need to consider a few other things, and, finally, don't even consider suggesting lowering standards, they are low enough now, as you are well aware and have testified to.

 

[davesparks]

if you thought about it you would realise i would use the switch to switch a contactor/relay

Why would you install a switch and contactor when all you need to do is fit a DP switch? You'd be introducing more potential points of failure and unnecessary expense!

(Put the spade back in the shed when you've digging your hole!)

 

[shanky887614]

Why would you install a switch and contactor when all you need to do is fit a DP switch? You'd be introducing more potential points of failure and unnecessary expense!

(Put the spade back in the shed when you've digging your hole!)

i wouldnt use a 45amp switch and like aa said i would have to see it first.

a rotary isolator would be better in commercial/ induatrial.

im not the one using a red 45amp double height switch to turn the shower on and off they look terrible.


ive been using installs that have been running over 15 years daily on the same so why would it be more likely to fail?

a contactor only energises a coil to pull it in or out its not like there are loads of electronic parts to them

 

[Marvo]

In the interests of world peace please don't refer to other electrical forums by name.
I've removed any previous references by name to other forums.

Lively and enthusiastic debate is great but please keep things civil and polite.

Thanks.

 

[davesparks]

They're not all red!

A rotary isolator would look awful in a drama studio!
And using a contactor where a simple switch will suffice is like using a sledge hammer to crack a nut!

A contactor which remains energised for weeks or possibly months on end is more likely to fail than a 45A DP switch.

The installation is pretty simple, it's a stage LX dimmer. A box which contains multiple dimmers controlled by a remote signal. They can be anything from 4x2.4KW dimmers up to 72x5KW dimmers.
In this instance I had a 6x2.4KW in mind as that is the normal basic size.

 

[ayjay]

contactors for showers good greif

 

[shanky887614]

contactors for showers good greif

the contactor was in responce to another comment about they use 45a dp switches for theature lights, my fault i should have quoted

 

[Guest111]

So if we were to do away with pull switches on showers could we also do away with isolators for electric cookers?after all by the same token a cooker has switches doesn't it.The way I see it every fixed piece of equipment needs local isolation,but then again I,m old school too.

 

[Engineer54]

So if we were to do away with pull switches on showers could we also do away with isolators for electric cookers?after all by the same token a cooker has switches doesn't it.The way I see it every fixed piece of equipment needs local isolation,but then again I,m old school too.

Huh, there are some here that think CCU are a waste of time too Phil!! lol!!

Old school, New school it doesn't matter, a local means of isolation has been the norm since the year dot and for very good reason!! So why change now, what are the advantages over the disadvantages of not having a means of local isolation to fixed equipment?? (especially for high current using equipment)!!


The only thing that's changed over the years is the quality of the installer and the availability of poor quality electrical accessories.... Add them together and that is where you find the vast majority of the failures folk are talking about here!!

 

[telectrix]

one of the problems may be the fact that a lot of customers use the shower isolator as an on/off switch. this leads to the question.. are these shower isolators rated for on-load switching, and could this be a cause of arcing causing premature failure and/or overheating within the switch and thence to the terminations?

 

[shanky887614]

one of the problems may be the fact that a lot of customers use the shower isolator as an on/off switch. this leads to the question.. are these shower isolators rated for on-load switching, and could this be a cause of arcing causing premature failure and/or overheating within the switch and thence to the terminations?

you right a lot of people use it like a lightswitch to turn on there shower

 

[D Skelton]

Well, the way I read things, you seem to be promoting or at least accepting a reduction in workmanship, considering what you have done recently, I feel that this is below you and fail to see why you are looking to accept this.

Then you are reading me wrong fella. I was brought up to question things, and not to just blindly follow the herd. I don't see how suggesting that not fitting a shower isolator is promoting the 'lowering' of standards, considering those 'standards' have not been set in the first place. As you can see, regardless of whether or not it's accepted industry practice, or something that the old school sparks do, rightly or wrongly, there is currently NO requirement, statutory or otherwise, to fit shower isolators (discounting the requirement to follow MIs should they say to do so). There is thread after thread after thread on forums like these, constant questions by muppets who shouldn't even be changing plugs, let alone carrying out work on fixed wiring, and yet I'm lambasted by you for addressing an issue I see becoming a real problem. Whether my train of thought is a good idea or a bad one, is it not neccessary for educated people to discuss daily issues such as melting electrical accessories?!

I may well be barking up the wrong tree, who knows, but throwing words like 'court' and 'manslaughter' around serves no purpose whatsoever, especially when the regs, in this case in particular, don't even come into the argument. We are talking about best practice, nothing more nothing less. The points you made were in that respect entirely moot. What you could have done however is argue the case for fitting shower isolators, as others have done. You could have addressed all the others on this thread who agree with my opinion that shower isolators, currently, don't seem to be fit for purpose and therefore could be argued that fitting them may indeed be less safe than not fitting them, but no, it's just my opinion that you have tried to invalidate, at least it appears that way to me.

I have never suggested that you are a product designer, and FWIW I agree that a LOT of the kit in the market place at the moment is inadequate, that there is no doubt that we will agree on, I can;t see why kit these days is so poor.
I will however reiterate that you are the designer of the installation, thus you have the designers duties under various situations.

I agree, and therefore as the designer, I have to do what I think is best in a situation that isn't entirely governed by regulation. Some are of the opinion that fitting a shower isolator is good, some are of the opinion that in some cases fitting one is bad. We can't always agree. We can at least hope to discuss freely, without let or hinderance, the merits of either solution.

The loose connections, were they tight though?
Come on, you are not going to admit that you have had to replace shower isolators that you have fitted because the terminations have come loose! Yes I am joking BTW.
Unfortunately it is impossible to tell once a shower isolator has failed due to overheated connections whether said connections were adequate in the first place.

You are quite correct, it would be impossible to be absolutely certain unless you had fitted one yourself. I would argue however that should the connections of other accessories throughout an installation be tight as a ducks back passage, and yet the only connections that are loose are the shower isolator's, it would tend to suggest, backed by a simple scientific principle such as the expansion and contraction of matter subjected to heat, that the connections were in fact also, at one point, tight as a ducks back passage. I reiterate... It would be impossible to be absolutely certain, but a continual pattern of events can often be quite suggestive.

I don't want to over complicate everything I merely want to improve the standards of installation and the competence of installers in an ongoing manner.

And I commend that effort. As do I. One thing I have always found to benefit me however, in all walks of life, is always looking for the simple solution. No one these days seems able to apply a bit of common sense, and this bugs me. When I see a shower isolator that has melted, I see a weak link in the chain. When I see a weak link in the chain, I want to remove it. YOU on the other hand want to start going off and designing better chain links! Others in my opinion seem to want to just continue fitting the same old weak links. Either way, no one is wrong or right here are they?! Each have a valid point of view, some may sway opinion more than others.

It seems to have taken a step change backwards recently.

I agree, but can you honestly say in your heart of hearts that I am somehow contributing to this?! That by merely raising the issue of a market saturated with products that seem in my eyes to not be fit for purpose, somehow plays a part in the further deskilling of an entire industry?! Because I don't.

I don't to be honest care about the "NBP haters club", the reason I post and select the threads that I do to post on, are those that I see have a significant possibility of suggesting reduced or lowered standards.

Then why single out my response?! I could point you to at least a dozen other threads this week that are far more worrying than a discussion about removing shower isolators ffs!! You seem all to happy to accept the mess that is currently in place (Part Pee an' all that), albeit moaning a little about it, yet pick up on issues that are neither here nor there in the grand scheme of things?!

Now, IMHO, to suggest not fitting a shower isolator fits that criteria.

And you are welcome to your opinion, and as long as your opinion stays an opinion, and doesn't turn in to another attempt to 'educate Damian', I value it.

A lot of the other threads on here are laughable, and most are taken care of by the normal crew.
However, as much as you may think that I hate you I don't, if you think that I hated you that much, or, did not have the time of day for you, do you really think I would take the time to debate things with you?

I never suggested that you hate me. You do certainly have a bee in your bonnet though! Maybe it's a sense of feeling superior? Maybe it's because you think "hey, that kid's got potential, he just needs steering in the right direction"? Maybe it's just because you get your kicks out of throwing big bad words around? Maybe your intentions are good, maybe they're bad? I don't know? Either way, I couldn't give a monkeys, but if you're going to discuss things with someone, no matter who they are, maybe starting off with the attitude of "this person is my equal, not my subordinate" might get you somewhere.

You can be the most intellegent, most knowledgable person on the planet, however it doesn't stop you from being a complete prat! (not that I am suggesting that you are a prat). There are ways that we as human beings converse. A good starting point when you want to get involved in a debate, is often to just sit your bum down and make your opinion heard. Being bombastic about things just serves to rub other people up the wrong way.

I respect your knowledge, I respect your experience, I expect that there is much I and others could learn from someone like you, but...

You cannot expect be right 100% of the time!

Damien, you do have some good intentions, and good ideas

Your attitude amazes me, in fact, I would go as far as to say it disgusts me most of the time

Come on mate, make your mind up!

and, you need to consider a few other things, and, finally, don't even consider suggesting lowering standards, they are low enough now, as you are well aware and have testified to.

Contrary to what you may believe, I have never suggested lowering standards, EVER.

I look for simple solutions to what seem to be simple problems. I may be on the money, I may well be way out, either way, as I said before, it never hurts to discuss these things.

You wanna take out some inner frustration on people who really do suggest lowering standards, it's the NIC you need to be hounding, not me!

I've said it once and I'll say it again, if you ever fancy a chat, you can find my number easy enough, give me a bell and I'd be happy to chew the fat with you!

 

[shanky887614]

i agree skelton but look at this.

when do you think this problem occurred?

not long after a ecir lol

it wasnt bad quality breakers, it is a bad company full of limp wristed spastics

 

[D Skelton]

i agree skelton but look at this.

when do you think this problem occurred?

not long after a ecir lol

look at what buddy?

 

[shanky887614]

look at what buddy?

pic in post above