Electrician has not supplied Certificate

[jcs8215248]

I have had some work done in our home but is is taking a long time getting the relevant certificates from the electrician.

I eventually received three Minor Electrical Installation Works Certificates covering much of the work. There is however still a significant one missing and I am at a loss to know how to get the certificate for the work.

The utility room involved more than just electrical work and was undertaken by a builder who subcontracted the electrical work to an electrician. The main work included almost completely rewiring a utility room but there was other electrical work done in my home as well. The missing certificate is for the lighting circuit where 8 GU10 LED down-lighters replaced the 2 pendant lights and the switching was changed to two way. This part of the work was completed around the end of 2016 but further electrical work was done in other parts of the house earlier this year (March).

I have no reason to think the work was not done according the the standards. Apparently the electrician mislaid the measurements he took and had to revisit to take them again.

Am I right to be concerned that he not yet provided the final certificate apart from him asking me to confirm which circuit was being used (on 19 July), the relevant work was completed December 2016?

What should I do if he fails to provide the certificate?

Should I inform his trade body (Elecsa)?

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

if you put the house up for sale and the missing certificate becomes an issue then you can get an indemnity policy for around £100 tops to cover the property in the event that the work covered by the missing certificate doesn't comply.
Had first hand experience of that recently when my cousin sold her house to move back down this way after her boyfriend sadly passed away. They lived otherside of the country so I couldnt be much help with doing original work. She was missing a certificate for the LED downlights that were installed in the lounge and dining room. She attempted to get the certificate but had no luck so paid for an indemnity policy through her solicitor as it was cheaper than getting it signed off via one of the 3rd party schemes. She paid less than £100 for the insurance indemnity policy and the house was sold with no hiccups

 

[Midwest]

Those indemnity policies have received some bad press in recent years. Effectively they are an insurance policy, that supposedly cover you if local building control find out you've had unapproved works carried out, and tell you to knock down your extension. How that would figure with electrical works, is anyone's guess.

Last time I researched this matter, there was a time scale, on when LBC could tell you to knock down your unapproved extension, i.e. something done 100 years ago would seem unrealistic to be prosecuted for. Think it was 5 years, might be wrong, and probably applies to England & Wales, not Scotland and NI

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

From what i know about the indemnity policies. it covers you in event LABC decided to take enforcement action if the electrical work didn't comply with the regulations, as even minor works must comply and can be enforced regardless of notification. i think the polices are more to cover the cost of making good any work to meet the regs, so you are not out of pocket. in real terms just a money making scam created by insurers to fleece property sellers and buyers...

 

[Leader]

They seem to be pushing these policies for anything and everything. I'm selling a house at the minute and was asked to take out an indemnity policy in lieu of providing a gas safety and electrical cert. My buyer was asked to take one out for her windows that were fitted 20 years ago because she didn't have a fensa cert, never mind that fensa wasn't a thing then! Money for old rope.

 

[Midwest]

From what i know about the indemnity policies. it covers you in event LABC decided to take enforcement action if the electrical work didn't comply with the regulations, as even minor works must comply and can be enforced regardless of notification. i think the polices are more to cover the cost of making good any work to meet the regs, so you are not out of pocket. in real terms just a money making scam created by insurers to fleece property sellers and buyers...

That's what I just friggin said

 

[jcs8215248]

To continue the saga - I am new to this certification process! I do like to understand what is being done however and to ensure that I am not risking any problems in the future if I should come to sell the property. The work in question was done over many months - the final work was completed in March and remedial work then completed about 2 weeks later (two lighting circuits did not work - broken wires that needed to be repaired)

I now have a copy of the Building Regulations Certificate of Compliance dated 13/07/2017 from the Electrician. Here is the text copied from the certificate

Description of Notifiable Work
Electrical
Circuit alteration or addition in a special location
Install one or more new circuits
Install a new circuit for ELV lighting within a dwelling​

My immediate question is regarding the final item. The only new lighting was mains voltage GU10 LED. I thought ELV referred to low voltage i.e. transformer fed lights. If I am correct does the Building Regulations Certificate need to be amended?

 

[Richard Burns]

I would not worry about amending the certificate, extra low voltage lighting installations are not notifiable in England so that line has no meaning as it would be covered by the line above.
In effect that line is not viable in any circumstances so can be discounted, it would not be valid to query whether the work was done and the certificate would be valid if such work were done whether that line was in there or not. Technically it is an error but an invalid error.

 

[jcs8215248]

I queried the ELV part with the electrician

I might be misunderstanding the terminology but the utility lights were GU10 mains voltage rather than low voltage. I am not sure why ELV is mentioned in the certificate.​

Here is his reply

it's more to do with me cutting holes in the ceiling than the voltage as ceiling form part of the fire barrier with in the house so if we cut through it we need to make sure we replace it ie by using fire rated fittings.
And it's to do with heat build up within the floor space
When the lights first came out they where mostly 12 hence the low voltage and got very hot ​

Now we use 230 volt gu10 with leds in so no heat build up either
There is only about 6 boxes that we have to describe the works we carry out So we have to pick the best ones to describe the works ​

The electrician replaced the lighting (originally two independent pendant lights) with one (now two way switched) with 8 new GU10 fittings (not low voltage) and fitted LED bulbs.

Is the building certificate valid by specifying a new (it was existing circuit and was changed to supply the new lights) and the lights are mains not ELV. I can understand the electrician's point about cutting holes in the ceiling affecting the fire resistance. If it matters it is a bungalow and the ceiling of the room is immediately below the pitched roof .

This is the line referred to:

Install a new circuit for ELV lighting within a dwelling​

 

[Midwest]

I think your electrician has just ticked an inappropriate box. There is a box for 'Install a new circuit for ELV lighting within a dwelling' (in my Elecsa on-line notification).

However, Part Building regs says (Part P Regs 2010) 'Extra-low voltage lighting installations, other than pre-assembled, CE-marked lighting sets', but I cannot find that reference in the 2013 version. It may been withdrawn in the 2013 update, but the notification process documentation has not been updated. Either way you do not have this installed. As Richard said it is an error that should not be cause for concern.

The query re fitting fire rated down lights in a domestic property, is somewhat contentious. A domestic property is treated as one fire zone, so therefore as such (with certain caveats) would not need fire rated fittings. However, other building regs do state that any holes made in the fabric of a domestic building should be suitably reinstated, as for example plasterboard is used to protect structural timbers from fire damage, as well as looking nice. There is also advice from Part P schemes to install fire rated down lights, so a scheme member would perhaps not go against this advice, should a fire caused damage through the use of non fire rated luminaire and the subsequent litigation. Personally, I always fit fire rated down lights, as the cost difference is minimal, and negates the issues over interpretation of the regulations.

I think the compliances certificate you've received for the work completed, covers all bases. I think you can put this to bed now?

 

[jcs8215248]

Thanks to the forum for all your help and advice.

I will probably want to use another electrician for further work. It has taken 5 months to get the certificates since the final work was completed (one new radial circuit and some conversion to two way switching) and over 8 months since the first room was completed (new power wiring and the new down-lighters in a utility room). Initially I was not aware that certificates should have been issued within a timescale and unaware that a certificate needed to be sent to building control. There have been several reminders sent by myself and the builder to the electrician.

I thought has just occurred to me - do I assume that the electrician sends the building control certificate to the appropriate authority or do I have to do it? I have an emailed copy now

 

[Toneyz]

Thanks to the forum for all your help and advice.

I will probably want to use another electrician for further work. It has taken 5 months to get the certificates since the final work was completed (one new radial circuit and some conversion to two way switching) and over 8 months since the first room was completed (new power wiring and the new down-lighters in a utility room). Initially I was not aware that certificates should have been issued within a timescale and unaware that a certificate needed to be sent to building control. There have been several reminders sent by myself and the builder to the electrician.

I thought has just occurred to me - do I assume that the electrician sends the building control certificate to the appropriate authority or do I have to do it? I have an emailed copy now

You do nothing the electricians scheme will have done this. Apart from the timescale of things stated above did you have any issue with their work.

 

[jcs8215248]

I believe the work to be safe and in accordance with the required standards (I read the 16th but have not kept up to date since). My degree is in electrical engineering (but that was over 50 years ago) and so I do have a good understanding of the hazards of working with electricity.

I was less happy about other aspects of his work in that he modified several lights from single to two way switching while we were away but returned to find that two of the lights did not work. The electrician, said when he came back, that there were two broken wires. It could not have been adequately tested.

He also chased out a wall in the kitchen without adequately covering up the kitchen work surface and we had to clean it when we returned home from holiday.

We will be asking the builder to find anther electrician when we have further work done.