EM Lock Partially Energize

[marconi]

Do not give up. All it takes is persistence and thinking.
[automerge]1575829429[/automerge]
Send me a private message with your address and I will buy you the digital multimeter I showed you earlier. DO NOT SEND ME YOUR ADDRESS IN THIS PUBLIC AREA.

 

[DPG]

Marconi, you always impress me with the level of support you give to people. I take my hat off to you.

 

[Deswin]

Do not give up. All it takes is persistence and thinking.
[automerge]1575829429[/automerge]
Send me a private message with your address and I will buy you the digital multimeter I showed you earlier. DO NOT SEND ME YOUR ADDRESS IN THIS PUBLIC AREA.

Hahah Thank you very much my friends, I don't give up in this project cause I learn lots of things doing this RFID project and this is first time i'm encountering this kind of problem. Hope i will solve this problem by today. Ill send my address to you later. You are so generous
[automerge]1575865655[/automerge]

Remove both locks and power them from a known good supply with short wires. Is there any difference between them in holding power?

I will try this method today by directly supply voltage to the coil.

 

[marconi]

If you look at my #15 post there is a picture of the EM lock and the armature plate - you call the armature plate the striking plate. In the middle of the plate is a dome shaped hole through which the wobble bolt secures it to the door or fixing bracket.

It is important to the strength of the magnetic lock that the plate can wobble to align itself flush with the face of the lock's electromagnet. The lock, when powered, should be able to grip a sheet of paper between it and the plate. Without the ability for the plate to move and be pulled up against the electromagnet, the magnetic pull will be reduced. Compare the wobble of EM1 with EM2.

So, has the armature/strike plate been installed so that it can wobble and move flush all along its length against the EM lock?

The hole in the plate requires the use of a special wobble bolt normally supplied with the lock kit. The wobble bolt is dome shaped also.

If you find that the plate is rigid, loosen off the bolt so it can wobble and see what happens to the strength of the lock. The plate must cover the face of the electromagnet completely.

Here is a useful youtube film which describes em locks and different types of brackets - are you using the right ones for EM2?

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEpVjickpFM


In case you don't know the presenter is a Welshman and they have a distinctive accent when they speak.

 

[Deswin]

If you look at my #15 post there is a picture of the EM lock and the armature plate - you call the armature plate the striking plate. In the middle of the plate is a dome shaped hole through which the wobble bolt secures it to the door or fixing bracket.

It is important to the strength of the magnetic lock that the plate can wobble to align itself flush with the face of the lock's electromagnet. The lock, when powered, should be able to grip a sheet of paper between it and the plate. Without the ability for the plate to move and be pulled up against the electromagnet, the magnetic pull will be reduced. Compare the wobble of EM1 with EM2.

So, has the armature/strike plate been installed so that it can wobble and move flush all along its length against the EM lock?

The hole in the plate requires the use of a special wobble bolt normally supplied with the lock kit. The wobble bolt is dome shaped also.

If you find that the plate is rigid, loosen off the bolt so it can wobble and see what happens to the strength of the lock. The plate must cover the face of the electromagnet completely.

Here is a useful youtube film which describes em locks and different types of brackets - are you using the right ones for EM2?

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEpVjickpFM


In case you don't know the presenter is a Welshman and they have a distinctive accent when they speak.

Today i went to the shop to repair the emlock and still unsuccessfull. I try every possible way to make it work on em lock 2 but still can't hold the magnet. I did separate wiring connection for each emlock and install separate power supply still give me the same result. Here's some picture i have about the RFID access card system accessories. The both emlocks with bracket and strike plate is still in good condition

 

[marconi]

If you have done the tests DPG and I have described on EM Lock 2 and it does not hold the plate strongly then its is now time to order a replacement EM Lock 2. It looks like the coil of EM Lock 2 has partially burned out. I think partially burned out because there is some difference in its strength of magnetic attraction when powered and unpowered.

The winding of the coil is actually a number of windings connected in parallel. Why it has burned out is a mystery. By mistake do you think you may have applied more than 12V dc to it for a prolonged time?

I am unclear if your meter has a resistance scale. If it does or you can borrow one that has, then measure the resistance of the coil of EM1 and compare with EM2. Observe the correct polarity otherwise the diode will conduct. I expect you will find EM1 has a lower resistance than EM2.

Let is know the result of fitting a new EM Lock 2 please.

 

[Deswin]

If you have done the tests DPG and I have described on EM Lock 2 and it does not hold the plate strongly then its is now time to order a replacement EM Lock 2. It looks like the coil of EM Lock 2 has partially burned out. I think partially burned out because there is some difference in its strength of magnetic attraction when powered and unpowered.

The winding of the coil is actually a number of windings connected in parallel. Why it has burned out is a mystery. By mistake do you think you may have applied more than 12V dc to it for a prolonged time?

I am unclear if your meter has a resistance scale. If it does or you can borrow one that has, then measure the resistance of the coil of EM1 and compare with EM2. Observe the correct polarity otherwise the diode will conduct. I expect you will find EM1 has a lower resistance than EM2.

Let is know the result of fitting a new EM Lock 2 please.

I already change the new em lock but the result is still the same. When i supply 12.10V from Power Supply to em lock 2, the voltage drop at 11.87V something in my multi meter. The first em lock the shop owner bought already replace with new one which i buy. Still the same result and nothing has improve. Or maybe, The access card power supply doesn't support for two door magnet ??
I use this kind of access card power Supply


By the way this is the multi meter that I use

 

[marconi]

Deswin. Let us start at the beginning because I am confused about what you have and have not changed.

I have attached below two clear pictures of how to connect up the grey Power Supply Control to the FOSA RFID card reader. I suggest you carefully check this is how you have connected the reader, the push and the power supply control together.

You cannot power both EM locks directly from the RFID reader or the Control Power Supply. Each lock needs its own power supply - the ones you sent a picture of which have a metal cover with many holes for ventilation.

You connect the locks as you have shown in your message #23 using the contacts of the relay (common and NO) to switch the power to them on and off. When this relay is energised the common is connected to the Normally Open (NO) contacts which switches power from the 12V dc 36W power supply to its lock.

This relay (Plasma) is controlled - the coil is connected to - the Common and NC contacts of the Power Supply Control. This will mean power is sent to the relay until the RFID key reader is activated - when the reader is activated the Power Supply Control contacts NC open. This turns off the relay which in turn turns of the EM locks. The relay is turned off for a time set on the Delay screw of the Power Supply Control.

All 3 power supplies should be set to output 12V dc.
Be careful to wire the relay coil correctly because it has a light inside it - an LED - to indicate when the relay coil is energised. The + of the coil must connect to the NC terminal on the Power supply control and - to the COM terminal.
The wire for the lock circuits must be thick like the brown and blue wires shown in your picture in # 25. The wires for the RFID reader, door push and relay coil can be thin.
The EM locks have + and - connections which must be connected so + goes to the Plasma relay and - goes to the 0V/Gnd of its power supply.

if you have new EM locks and connected everything together as in the diagrams and as I have described then it should work.

Your meter does have a resistance setting - please do as I have asked and measure the resistance of the EM locks at the lock terminals and then do the measurement at the end of the cable where is connected to the Plasma relay - disconnected from the relay but connected at the lock end. The four readings should be the same. Tell me what you measure and how you measured.
[automerge]1575928685[/automerge]
power supply control wiring diagram - Google Search - https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GCEA_enGB822GB822&biw=1517&bih=694&tbm=isch&sxsrf=ACYBGNSQMqzRr3ZlbPWqRpk5pFTOB8ibTw%3A1575928590851&sa=1&ei=DsPuXb3PM6HaxgPf5rWADQ&q=power+supply+control+wiring+diagram&oq=power+supply+control+wiring&gs_l=img.1.0.0j0i8i30l3.23477.28363..33273...0.0..0.168.2352.28j2......0....1..gws-wiz-img.......35i39j0i24j0i30j0i5i30.2Sy1fBQG7-E#imgrc=FKujQGpBOxTnvM:

 

[Deswin]

Deswin. Let us start at the beginning because I am confused about what you have and have not changed.

I have attached below two clear pictures of how to connect up the grey Power Supply Control to the FOSA RFID card reader. I suggest you carefully check this is how you have connected the reader, the push and the power supply control together.

You cannot power both EM locks directly from the RFID reader or the Control Power Supply. Each lock needs its own power supply - the ones you sent a picture of which have a metal cover with many holes for ventilation.

You connect the locks as you have shown in your message #23 using the contacts of the relay (common and NO) to switch the power to them on and off. When this relay is energised the common is connected to the Normally Open (NO) contacts which switches power from the 12V dc 36W power supply to its lock.

This relay (Plasma) is controlled - the coil is connected to - the Common and NC contacts of the Power Supply Control. This will mean power is sent to the relay until the RFID key reader is activated - when the reader is activated the Power Supply Control contacts NC open. This turns off the relay which in turn turns of the EM locks. The relay is turned off for a time set on the Delay screw of the Power Supply Control.

All 3 power supplies should be set to output 12V dc.
Be careful to wire the relay coil correctly because it has a light inside it - an LED - to indicate when the relay coil is energised. The + of the coil must connect to the NC terminal on the Power supply control and - to the COM terminal.
The wire for the lock circuits must be thick like the brown and blue wires shown in your picture in # 25. The wires for the RFID reader, door push and relay coil can be thin.
The EM locks have + and - connections which must be connected so + goes to the Plasma relay and - goes to the 0V/Gnd of its power supply.

if you have new EM locks and connected everything together as in the diagrams and as I have described then it should work.

Your meter does have a resistance setting - please do as I have asked and measure the resistance of the EM locks at the lock terminals and then do the measurement at the end of the cable where is connected to the Plasma relay - disconnected from the relay but connected at the lock end. The four readings should be the same. Tell me what you measure and how you measured.
[automerge]1575928685[/automerge]
power supply control wiring diagram - Google Search - https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GCEA_enGB822GB822&biw=1517&bih=694&tbm=isch&sxsrf=ACYBGNSQMqzRr3ZlbPWqRpk5pFTOB8ibTw%3A1575928590851&sa=1&ei=DsPuXb3PM6HaxgPf5rWADQ&q=power+supply+control+wiring+diagram&oq=power+supply+control+wiring&gs_l=img.1.0.0j0i8i30l3.23477.28363..33273...0.0..0.168.2352.28j2......0....1..gws-wiz-img.......35i39j0i24j0i30j0i5i30.2Sy1fBQG7-E#imgrc=FKujQGpBOxTnvM:

This morning i go again there and measure the resistance of the both emlock. The first emlock resistance is 30 ohm and the second em lock resistance is 24 ohm. The first em lock voltage is 12.7VDC and the second em lock 11.79VDC when both power ON. I use this wiring diagram for RFID wiring system but still the first emlock works perfectly than the second em lock.

The exit push, ring bell, wireless remote, and the RFID access card all works fine with the power supply i used with i show you diagram in #37. Before that the shop i done wiring has one aluminum frame glass door equip with one magnet and works fine.
After the shop owner change mind and install two door frameless swinging glass door and install with two magnet then i did some changes in the wiring where i add another relay to control two em lock and two emlock with individual power supply. Still the first em lock works but the second emlock didn't work.

 

[Deswin]

Deswin. Let us start at the beginning because I am confused about what you have and have not changed.

I have attached below two clear pictures of how to connect up the grey Power Supply Control to the FOSA RFID card reader. I suggest you carefully check this is how you have connected the reader, the push and the power supply control together.

You cannot power both EM locks directly from the RFID reader or the Control Power Supply. Each lock needs its own power supply - the ones you sent a picture of which have a metal cover with many holes for ventilation.

You connect the locks as you have shown in your message #23 using the contacts of the relay (common and NO) to switch the power to them on and off. When this relay is energised the common is connected to the Normally Open (NO) contacts which switches power from the 12V dc 36W power supply to its lock.

This relay (Plasma) is controlled - the coil is connected to - the Common and NC contacts of the Power Supply Control. This will mean power is sent to the relay until the RFID key reader is activated - when the reader is activated the Power Supply Control contacts NC open. This turns off the relay which in turn turns of the EM locks. The relay is turned off for a time set on the Delay screw of the Power Supply Control.

All 3 power supplies should be set to output 12V dc.
Be careful to wire the relay coil correctly because it has a light inside it - an LED - to indicate when the relay coil is energised. The + of the coil must connect to the NC terminal on the Power supply control and - to the COM terminal.
The wire for the lock circuits must be thick like the brown and blue wires shown in your picture in # 25. The wires for the RFID reader, door push and relay coil can be thin.
The EM locks have + and - connections which must be connected so + goes to the Plasma relay and - goes to the 0V/Gnd of its power supply.

if you have new EM locks and connected everything together as in the diagrams and as I have described then it should work.

Your meter does have a resistance setting - please do as I have asked and measure the resistance of the EM locks at the lock terminals and then do the measurement at the end of the cable where is connected to the Plasma relay - disconnected from the relay but connected at the lock end. The four readings should be the same. Tell me what you measure and how you measured.
[automerge]1575928685[/automerge]
power supply control wiring diagram - Google Search - https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GCEA_enGB822GB822&biw=1517&bih=694&tbm=isch&sxsrf=ACYBGNSQMqzRr3ZlbPWqRpk5pFTOB8ibTw%3A1575928590851&sa=1&ei=DsPuXb3PM6HaxgPf5rWADQ&q=power+supply+control+wiring+diagram&oq=power+supply+control+wiring&gs_l=img.1.0.0j0i8i30l3.23477.28363..33273...0.0..0.168.2352.28j2......0....1..gws-wiz-img.......35i39j0i24j0i30j0i5i30.2Sy1fBQG7-E#imgrc=FKujQGpBOxTnvM:
[/QU

This morning i go again there and measure the resistance of the both emlock. The first emlock resistance is 30 ohm and the second em lock resistance is 24 ohm. The first em lock voltage is 12.7VDC and the second em lock 11.79VDC when both power ON. I use this wiring diagram for RFID wiring system but still the first emlock works perfectly than the second em lock.
View attachment 54487
The exit push, ring bell, wireless remote, and the RFID access card all works fine with the power supply i used with i show you diagram in #37. Before that the shop i done wiring has one aluminum frame glass door equip with one magnet and works fine.
After the shop owner change mind and install two door frameless swinging glass door and install with two magnet then i did some changes in the wiring where i add another relay to control two em lock and two emlock with individual power supply. Still the first em lock works but the second emlock didn't work.

Deswin. Let us start at the beginning because I am confused about what you have and have not changed.

I have attached below two clear pictures of how to connect up the grey Power Supply Control to the FOSA RFID card reader. I suggest you carefully check this is how you have connected the reader, the push and the power supply control together.

You cannot power both EM locks directly from the RFID reader or the Control Power Supply. Each lock needs its own power supply - the ones you sent a picture of which have a metal cover with many holes for ventilation.

You connect the locks as you have shown in your message #23 using the contacts of the relay (common and NO) to switch the power to them on and off. When this relay is energised the common is connected to the Normally Open (NO) contacts which switches power from the 12V dc 36W power supply to its lock.

This relay (Plasma) is controlled - the coil is connected to - the Common and NC contacts of the Power Supply Control. This will mean power is sent to the relay until the RFID key reader is activated - when the reader is activated the Power Supply Control contacts NC open. This turns off the relay which in turn turns of the EM locks. The relay is turned off for a time set on the Delay screw of the Power Supply Control.

All 3 power supplies should be set to output 12V dc.
Be careful to wire the relay coil correctly because it has a light inside it - an LED - to indicate when the relay coil is energised. The + of the coil must connect to the NC terminal on the Power supply control and - to the COM terminal.
The wire for the lock circuits must be thick like the brown and blue wires shown in your picture in # 25. The wires for the RFID reader, door push and relay coil can be thin.
The EM locks have + and - connections which must be connected so + goes to the Plasma relay and - goes to the 0V/Gnd of its power supply.

if you have new EM locks and connected everything together as in the diagrams and as I have described then it should work.

Your meter does have a resistance setting - please do as I have asked and measure the resistance of the EM locks at the lock terminals and then do the measurement at the end of the cable where is connected to the Plasma relay - disconnected from the relay but connected at the lock end. The four readings should be the same. Tell me what you measure and how you measured.
[automerge]1575928685[/automerge]
power supply control wiring diagram - Google Search - https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GCEA_enGB822GB822&biw=1517&bih=694&tbm=isch&sxsrf=ACYBGNSQMqzRr3ZlbPWqRpk5pFTOB8ibTw%3A1575928590851&sa=1&ei=DsPuXb3PM6HaxgPf5rWADQ&q=power+supply+control+wiring+diagram&oq=power+supply+control+wiring&gs_l=img.1.0.0j0i8i30l3.23477.28363..33273...0.0..0.168.2352.28j2......0....1..gws-wiz-img.......35i39j0i24j0i30j0i5i30.2Sy1fBQG7-E#imgrc=FKujQGpBOxTnvM:

On the other hand, i tried using power supply 12VDC 5A to both emlocks but still the second one didn't work fell even the magnet is still new. Like as i said I did wiring for each power supply and did connect V+ to + and V- to - from power supply to em lock. And still the second emlock fail to work.

Deswin. Let us start at the beginning because I am confused about what you have and have not changed.

I have attached below two clear pictures of how to connect up the grey Power Supply Control to the FOSA RFID card reader. I suggest you carefully check this is how you have connected the reader, the push and the power supply control together.

You cannot power both EM locks directly from the RFID reader or the Control Power Supply. Each lock needs its own power supply - the ones you sent a picture of which have a metal cover with many holes for ventilation.

You connect the locks as you have shown in your message #23 using the contacts of the relay (common and NO) to switch the power to them on and off. When this relay is energised the common is connected to the Normally Open (NO) contacts which switches power from the 12V dc 36W power supply to its lock.

This relay (Plasma) is controlled - the coil is connected to - the Common and NC contacts of the Power Supply Control. This will mean power is sent to the relay until the RFID key reader is activated - when the reader is activated the Power Supply Control contacts NC open. This turns off the relay which in turn turns of the EM locks. The relay is turned off for a time set on the Delay screw of the Power Supply Control.

All 3 power supplies should be set to output 12V dc.
Be careful to wire the relay coil correctly because it has a light inside it - an LED - to indicate when the relay coil is energised. The + of the coil must connect to the NC terminal on the Power supply control and - to the COM terminal.
The wire for the lock circuits must be thick like the brown and blue wires shown in your picture in # 25. The wires for the RFID reader, door push and relay coil can be thin.
The EM locks have + and - connections which must be connected so + goes to the Plasma relay and - goes to the 0V/Gnd of its power supply.

if you have new EM locks and connected everything together as in the diagrams and as I have described then it should work.

Your meter does have a resistance setting - please do as I have asked and measure the resistance of the EM locks at the lock terminals and then do the measurement at the end of the cable where is connected to the Plasma relay - disconnected from the relay but connected at the lock end. The four readings should be the same. Tell me what you measure and how you measured.
[automerge]1575928685[/automerge]
power supply control wiring diagram - Google Search - https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GCEA_enGB822GB822&biw=1517&bih=694&tbm=isch&sxsrf=ACYBGNSQMqzRr3ZlbPWqRpk5pFTOB8ibTw%3A1575928590851&sa=1&ei=DsPuXb3PM6HaxgPf5rWADQ&q=power+supply+control+wiring+diagram&oq=power+supply+control+wiring&gs_l=img.1.0.0j0i8i30l3.23477.28363..33273...0.0..0.168.2352.28j2......0....1..gws-wiz-img.......35i39j0i24j0i30j0i5i30.2Sy1fBQG7-E#imgrc=FKujQGpBOxTnvM:

On the other hand, i tried using power supply 12VDC 5A to both emlocks but still the second one didn't work fell even the magnet is still new. Like as i said I did wiring for each power supply and did connect V+ to + and V- to - from power supply to em lock. And still the second emlock fail to work
Source URL: EM Lock Partially Energize - https://www.electriciansforums.net/threads/em-lock-partially-energize.180026/#post-1593663

 

[marconi]

The resistances look fine.

Check that the 12V to EM lock 2 does reduce to zero when the push or RFID reader is activated.

Have you tried swapping over the strike (armature plates) to see if EM lock 1 becomes weak and EMlock 2 strong?

Are the two locks the same make and model?

Are the two plates the same make and model?

Are the plates the same make as the locks?

Are the plates the ones that came with the locks?

Did you try connecting the power supply directly to the plug with red wires going in to it - unplugged first from the circuit board?

Sorry to ask - is EM lock 2 fitted exactly the same way as lock 1?

Please send some pictures of the two locks and plates as fitted to the doors.

 

[Deswin]

The resistances look fine.

Check that the 12V to EM lock 2 does reduce to zero when the push or RFID reader is activated.

Have you tried swapping over the strike (armature plates) to see if EM lock 1 becomes weak and EMlock 2 strong?

Are the two locks the same make and model?

Are the two plates the same make and model?

Are the plates the same make as the locks?

Are the plates the ones that came with the locks?

Did you try connecting the power supply directly to the plug with red wires going in to it - unplugged first from the circuit board?

Sorry to ask - is EM lock 2 fitted exactly the same way as lock 1?

Please send some pictures of the two locks and plates as fitted to the doors.

Both em lock brand name is (E Lock). I check the armature plate,the magnet brackets are well installed. I try connect the power supply directly to em lock terminal without PCB but still the same result . I try every possbile to make the emlock work but didnt get the best result as i expected

 

[marconi]

Deswin: The conclusion I think we need to reach is that EM lock 2 is defective and you need to buy a replacement for it.

I reach this conclusion because:

1. It is a 12 V dc coil and you have provided this.
2. It is connected the correct way to + and -.
3. It has a similar resistance to EM Lock 1 = 25 Ohms.
4. The correct current is passing through the coil 12/25 = 0.5Amps
5. The strike plate is aligned.

I suspect that there is a manufacturing defect which has introduced an air gap (increased reluctance) in the magnetic circuit inside the lock, which has reduced greatly the flux produced by the magnetising force, - resulting in much reduced magnetisation and thence attraction of the armature/strike plate.

 

[DPG]

Agree with Marconi - if you have connected the emlock directly to the PSU and it still has weak pull, then it must be faulty.

 

[Deswin]

Deswin: The conclusion I think we need to reach is that EM lock 2 is defective and you need to buy a replacement for it.

I reach this conclusion because:

1. It is a 12 V dc coil and you have provided this.
2. It is connected the correct way to + and -.
3. It has a similar resistance to EM Lock 1 = 25 Ohms.
4. The correct current is passing through the coil 12/25 = 0.5Amps
5. The strike plate is aligned.

I suspect that there is a manufacturing defect which has introduced an air gap (increased reluctance) in the magnetic circuit inside the lock, which has reduced greatly the flux produced by the magnetising force, - resulting in much reduced magnetisation and thence attraction of the armature/strike plate.

Maybe that's the case, the air gaps even a few mili meter can effect the magnet or perhaps the control power supply for RFID is not support for two door magnet. The magnet i bought has 6 month warranty if there's malfunction in magnet. I try to call a RFID technician and told him about this problem and waiting for his answer. What is reluctance by the way??