EMF dangers - advice needed

[Deborah B]

My flat has high levels of EMF, Electromagnetic Field from floor wiring / Electric Field from ceiling wiring. It is often is above safe levels for continued exposure. Two years ago I had 2 incidents when EMF was so strong it made my entire body shake visibly - I had to run to get out of the flat.
I would like to know;
1) what could have been the cause of these two incidents?
2) what are the physical consequences of remaining in this situation for a sustained length of time when said incidents are occurring?
3) since the problem remains, what is the probability that these incidents could happen again - am I correct to be scared?

 

[DPG]

I am assuming that kV/m is the same as V/m?

No, one is a factor of 1000 higher than the other! This greatly affects your findings.

 

[James]

9kV/m is the same as 9000 V/m

 

[Vortigern]

I think a quick search will show many products that can shield you from EMF. There are two approaches one is body shielding and the other whole flat/house shielding. I imagine body clothing with built in shielding would be much cheaper.

 

[Deborah B]

To telectrix; thanks for your interest, that was very funny.
Unfortunately, my symptoms don't happen anywhere else outside the home, except for when near certain types of wi-fi, refrigerators and computers. And not all the time at home, thank goodness.
I would welcome a medical diagnosis, then I could do something about it, hopefully. Apart from cancer - nobody in their right mind would want that!
And I assume that the 2 EMF Tester metres, plus the independent EMF contractor's metres are not faulty.... It would be an extremely silly person to argue with scientific technology!
I hope you are able to sort out your alcohol-induced dizzy spells. How I wish I had those to explain this situation!
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To Vortigern, many thanks for that advice; I have already got effective shielding for my bed which works most of the time. It is probably why my health has not been too affected this second time - the first time (2 years ago) I got Hyperthyroidism and actually moved out for 4 months. Unfortunately, I cannot do so this time.
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Thanks James and DPG,
as you can see from comparing advice on safe levels from EM Watch to em.info and the ICNIRP levels, they are significantly different for EF. And 900 V/m is extremely high!
A number of other sources give safe levels as under 10 V/m.
As I have said, all levels are recommended, but no official levels are given for homes. The ones given by em.info and the ICIRP are 'with particular reference to power lines' - outside of the home.

 

[Cookie]

Being honest 2-10mg isn't that high... in the states I'd expect something like 100mg with our grounding practices...
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If anyone is curious- here is video describing common causes of elevated EMFs in buildings. The problems disclosed here are abundantly common in the US, however I'd imagine that they also happen in UK wiring systems to some degree give or take.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAAZCMns8YM



Not really discussed in this video but bonding of gas, water, and rebar in TN-C-S systems can also "naturally" elevate magnetic fields in a building.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

When assessing what is 'safe', 'normal', 'dangerous' etc., please be very careful to refer only to primary sources of peer-reviewed, mainstream scientific studies that are relevant to your situation.

There is an industry built around selling test meters, shielding products etc that ranges from probably-valid-but-maybe-not-very-relevant, to outright quackery and fraud. Being generous, I would say that the industry tends to be out of step with the few reliable, relevant studies that exist. For example, some guidelines from 'EMF practitioners' and safe/unsafe bands marked on test meters are chosen to reflect an 'ideological' approach rather than an evidence-based one. A cynic would observe that the more people whose homes fall into the 'dangerous' band on their gadget, the more shielding products they can sell.

For example, to me as an electrical engineer, classifying >25V/m as 'high-risk' is pretty extreme, but I have the advantage of working with these numbers and units in the real world. I know what 25V/m is like; I could create it accurately in the lab, I could design, build and calibrate an instrument of my own to measure it. As an equivalent example, if I proposed that a turkey weighing 60 kilograms would take 5 minutes to cook, you would tend to distrust my views on cookery because, like most people, you probably have a good general idea about turkeys and ovens; but I fear that is how some of these figures on EM safety read to the engineer.

I cannot stress too highly, when judging the relevance of information on this particular subject, avoid opinions, mine or anyone else's, and take care when assessing the recommendations of anyone who sells 'medical' gadgets. Use proper studies from mainstream science, as their academic rigour is likely to make them infinitely more valuable than a lot of what you will read on the internet.

 

[Deborah B]

Hi Cookie, thanks for the video and the additional info.
The more I find out about this issue, the more worried I become - most people are not aware of EMF and possible health levels and there is a lack of research that is accepted on this subject - which is probably why my landlord (a major Housing Association) is ignoring my requests to investigate this issue with appropriate tests - they insist normal tests are adequate.
Also, the accepted dangerous levels are wishy-washy or fantastic ( 1000 V/m being deemed acceptable is amazing unless one is far away from it. But then it would not be an issue anyway!) And, of course, no definitive safe levels appear to exist for homes.

To some people though, high or even low levels can be an issue, as is my situation. I believe I have become sensitive to this through exposure to high levels over time; I probably did not feel it until my system became overloaded. Also, when I sleep well, I am much less sensitive and feel it much less. This is actually more worrying; since I don't always feel the medium to low levels, I don't get that physical warning....

It is worth bearing in mind that sleep issues and cancer levels are rising in populations, which should be surprising as people are more aware of healthy living and nutrition, and medical practices are more advanced. I wonder what correlation there is with increased use of electrical equipment and wi-fi? It would be very interesting to find out.

 

[nicebutdim]

Some time back a friend of mine bought a device to measure EMFs in his home and was alarmed by its findings. He bought this on impulse, rather than through prior concern about the issue.

He discussed this with me and at first I took the information at face value, but began to think about some of the readings and suggested he tested a few regularly use electrical devices. When he tested a hair dryer his opinions changed dramatically and he then understood that the frequency of detected fields was rather important, which his device gave no indication of.

I'm not dismissing the OP's experience and I know that some people can be exceptionally sensitive to issues that don't affect the general population, but I'd echo a previous comment about how an industry has grown around the testing of EMFs and fairly expensive solutions.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

Also, the accepted dangerous levels are wishy-washy or fantastic (1000 V/m being deemed acceptable is amazing...)

Please could you give some sources on which you base your assessment that '1kV/m being deemed acceptable is amazing.' I am interested to know what kind of sources you are using, out of concern that they might not be reliable. I am not doubting your experiences, BTW.

 

[Deborah B]

To Lucien Nunes, many thanks for your advice.

It IS extremely difficult to get official, approved information on many things around this issue, including safe EMF levels, health effects, metres, accepted building practices and shielding materials.
That is why I have taken time and trouble to ask people who have that specialised knowledge of this subject, including 2 EMF surveyors, 2 electricians and a person with a PHD in Engineering. One recommended many ways to minimise exposure and material that shields, which have definitely helped - and most strategies are free or else not expensive. She actually has EMF sensitivity as well - much worse than mine, and has worked as a medical doctor.

Which brings me to the main point; unless one actually has EMF sensitivity, it is very difficult to accept that there is an issue/danger being exposed to 'medium' to 'high' levels of EMF - how can one know if you can't actually feel any physical disturbance? I definitely understand this.
And, of course, most people's physical body are very resilient, and could adapt and remain unaffected.

However, the question is, would a person deliberately expose themselves to this over a long period of time (say 1 month) in order to find out? Most people, just from basic, common sense knowledge of electricity, would certainly not do this!

I wonder, Lucien, what EMg and EF levels you would say are safe for prolonged exposure (1 month)? Even better, if you have good sources for this information please share it - I am here to learn, otherwise there is no point to joining this forum. I am talking to prolonged exposure in the home only.

It is also worth pointing out that lack of conclusive and approved safe levels in households can only benefit companies who manufacture or sell electrical products. And this is a huge growth market, which most governments would not want to suppress, for obvious reasons.

I have already given 3 sources for EMF levels info; emf.org, the ICNIRP and EM Watch.

I DO NOT want to get into an argument or discussion about accepted or unaccepted safe levels, or different sources of information - this cannot be proved 1 way or another since this does not exist!

Please look at my original query - let us not get too distracted, however interesting these other avenues may be!

 

[Deborah B]

Just wanted to repeat my post;

My flat has high levels of EMF, Electromagnetic Field from floor wiring / Electric Field from ceiling wiring. It is often is above safe levels for continued exposure. Two years ago I had 2 incidents when EMF was so strong it made my entire body shake visibly - I had to run to get out of the flat.

I would like to know;
1) what could have been the cause of these two incidents?
2) what are the physical consequences of remaining in this situation for a sustained length of time when said incidents are occurring?
3) since the problem remains, what is the probability that these incidents could happen again - am I correct to be scared?

I have some additional info/ideas of the cause

• since EMg comes mainly from the floor and EF from the ceiling, could be that when both were particularly high and merged, it caused such a strong field?
• does the above have similarities to a naked electric current that is diffused over a space, or is that impossible?
• EMF contractor said it was possible that a strong RF may have come in come outside, by itself causing the incident, or merging with high levels of EMg / EF?
• Could the high levels of EMF in the flat attract RF from outside?

You'll have to forgive me if any of the ideas are ridiculous!

Many thanks to all who have contributed to this thread.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

I wonder, Lucien, what EMg and EF levels you would say are safe for prolonged exposure (1 month)

I cannot say, as I have not carried out a relevant, controlled, reproducible, statistically significant study. I could quote or link to studies by others, but they would probably show confirmation bias, i.e. I would tend to link preferentially to studies that agree with my own views, so it is better that I don't.

Re. the sources you mention, ICNIRP I would tend to trust in general, due to their transparency. They have rigid operating principles to help maintain impartiality, e.g. they do not accept funding from makers of electrical or electronic equipment or shielding products. Their commission members must be academics who are not employed by commercial organisations etc.

EMwatch.com I would not consider an impartial source of information. It appears to be one individual or company whose identity is not explicitly stated, who is a provider of services e.g. surveys, and is a seller or promoter of protection products. I will save my thoughts on the content of the website and some of the links on it.

emf.org does not seem to be relevant.

Returning to your original questions, I would say that they are extremely difficult to answer in a meaningful way since they have to be interpreted in the possible context of you being highly sensitive to EM fields, but without any indication to what extent. For example, your first question supposes that high levels of EM fields were responsible for your symptoms during those two events, however the field strengths you later mention are not abnormally high.

I do not think anyone can give truly relevant and dependable advice regarding your specific experiences via a web forum. Hence, in my previous post, I limited my comments to a general but firm caution, having researched for my own interest and found a prevalence of misinformation.
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OK, the extra questions are easier to answer.

Fields add in well-defined ways. Further details are required about them to know what the interaction will be, e.g. phase and orientation in space. They can add to create a stronger field, cancel out completely, or most likely result in a different spatial arrangement of a field somewhat stronger than either. But not much stronger; they don't 'multiply' and become huge.

I do not understand 'naked electric current', sorry.

Incident RF energy could have come from all sorts of places but it's most unlikely at the field strengths we would normally consider significant. If someone is pointing the feedhorn of a microwave transmitter through the ceiling, then yes. A cell tower down the road, probably not a big deal.

No, EM radiation cannot 'attract' other radiation. As above, it is a trivial matter to calculate how multiple sources will interact, a much more difficult matter to be able to precisely characterise those sources spatially and temporally.

 

[DPG]

Have you considered moving out for a couple of weeks to see if the problems cease?

I suspect you are never going to be happy in your current property, no matter how much shielding and earthing is done. Especially with the presence of the nearby radio transmitter masts.

And I'm not sure what else the landlord can do in reality - it's not really within his remit to carry out extreme measures to eradicate this issue.

 

[pc1966]

It is very important to remember that correlation is not causation.

If you have had disturbing events and see some EMF meter reading high it does not establish that the EMF is any sort of underlying cause. The "safe" levels cited by the UK/EU regulation bodies are precautionary levels. These are far, far below the sort of levels that are normally going to cause any sensation or recognised biological effect and have been set due to the weak correlation between possible EMF sources and medical events just in case some mechanism is found in the future.

There are many other phenomenon that can cause "sick building syndrome" where some (or even many) individuals feel unwell or unhappy in a given location. EMF is among the pretty low probabilities for being a cause of the sort of symptoms you have reported.

So once again, this is not any sort of rejection of what you experienced, but a suggestion that you need to be looking any various other possible explanations from underlying medical issues to a whole range of other site-related triggers due to physical phenomena such as infra-sound, or to more likely ones relating to poor ventialtion and reactions to chemicals or biological factors (insects, fungi, etc) that might be present.

 

[Deborah B]

Many thanks to those of you who have contributed to my question - this will be my last post for a while; I am pretty exhausted mentally and physically having to deal with this issue.
My aim has been to gather information in order to convince my landlord - a housing association - to rehouse me and/or do necessary repairs, which they are refusing to do. From what I have come to learn about this issue, I understand repairs would involve taking up floor/ceiling areas to have direct access to wires, which may explain their reluctance.
I have contacted my MP, my Councillor, the Housing Ombudsman and Shelter, all of whom are treating my issue seriously. All of these bodies, plus my HA, have never raised questions as to whether this issue actually exists, which is very interesting.
Mr Nunes and DPG - HUGE THANKS for your input.
BTW those 2 incidents were not the cause of my sensitivity - it had started a few month before.
Also, I had moved out 2 years ago for 4 months because of all the disturbance. This allowed me to sleep well and my body recovered so it was no longer as sensitive to EMF.
It is interesting to note that both incidents of EMF (2 years ago and from April this year) started when more tenants were home more often and using their electricity. (We have 12+ teachers in our 30 flat block). I have lived here for 20 years and have had no other health issues. I have also worked with children/young adults with Special Needs (including extreme behavioural issues and ASD) for 20+ years, so have no issues with my nerves!)
For pc1966; because of the disturbance sometimes affecting my heart, I had a 24 hour Ambulatory ECG that recorded events of palpitations, missed or extra beats, and stronger beats directly linked to EMF disturbance, recorded on the metre. One incident was when I used the self serving tills at a supermarket; there was 10+ grouped together, all using WiFi. The disturbance stopped as soon as I moved away.
I would strongly caution you to NOT seek to minimise real concerns of people who are actually undergoing issues like this. Although there is a wealth of misinformation about EMF and it's effects of the human body, there is also a wealth of research done by medical experts and those from other scientific fields who have drawn direct correlations between health issues and this - please research it yourself before writing posts such as your last one. However well-intentioned you may be, quoting statistics and regurgitating information is not the same as lived experience. One has to always question accepted information especially from 'trusted' bodies. Don't forget, 'trusted' scientists once thought the earth was flat....!
We certainly do not, as yet, fully know the consequences of the growth of technology, especially the use of WIFI, on our planet or our bodies. But we need to always keep an open and questioning mind, and - more importantly - actually take seriously those who raise issues from their experience. It is not just for their own benefit, but for everyone's benefit.
I hope my issue may have been of help to others, to - at least - raise the profile of EMF and it's effects on the physical body - as a subject for serious consideration.

Many thanks for your time.

Regards, Deb