Fire Rated Clips In Trunking

[ThrownRazor25]

Hi all,

From January 2019 when we are doing an EICR, how would you tackle trunking which has no fire rated clips in it which is in an area where there could be an issue regarding the cables falling in the event of a fire?

Would you advise to retrofit the clips in the trunking? Or state that the trunking conforms to a previous edition of the regulations?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Spoon]

When you have been doing EICR's have you been coding plastic CU's? If so then what code?
It's your question the same principle...?

 

[ThrownRazor25]

I would code a plastic DB as a C3, improvement recommended. That is not my issue though, it is the fact that the new regs state that all plastic trunking should have a suitable method of protection to stop cables falling in the event of a fire.

I dont think a DB would cause the same amount of hazard with regard of cables falling from height as trunking across a ceiling or high on a wall would cause so i dont really understand your point?

My question was simple, would you advise the client to retrofit fire rated clips in the trunking? Or advise that it conforms to a previous edition?

 

[westward10]

The Report should state facts, that the cables are not suitably supported to prevent premature collapse in the event of a fire. That is it, any advice or remedial suggestions come later. This should be in Reports now if cables are on escape routes.

 

[polo1]

Depends; if it was an escape route, possible C2; elsewhere presuming a 17th Ed or earlier instal, C3.

 

[Risteard]

Personally I would view a lack of suitable supports to prevent premature collapse in the event of a fire as quite a serious defect (unless there was particular evidence that it wouldn't pose a danger).

We are aware of the hazards of this and the fact that several firefighters have died as a result of this, so I think it's a red herring to argue whether it was compliant at the time of installation or not.

 

[Risteard]

presuming a 17th Ed or earlier instal, C3.

What has the Edition it was installed to got to do with the level of danger posed?

 

[polo1]

I ain’t getting into a debate, but in mho, the requirement for supporting cables in escape routes was introduced in the 17th Edition, the regs are not retrospective, therefore if installed before the requirement, C3.

 

[davesparks]

I ain’t getting into a debate, but in mho, the requirement for supporting cables in escape routes was introduced in the 17th Edition, the regs are not retrospective, therefore if installed before the requirement, C3.

The regs are not retrospective so you don’t have to go back and change things on previously completed jobs.
However an EICR is not a previously completed job or part of it, it is a completely separate thing. An EICR is not carried out to prove that an existing installation has remained unchanged nor to verify it against its original specification.
An EICR is carried out to the current regulations and it is intended to ensure the continued safety of the installation which includes identifying items which have now been recognised as dangerous.

 

[davesparks]

Would you advise to retrofit the clips in the trunking? Or state that the trunking conforms to a previous edition of the regulations?
.

If you found double pole (L&N) fusing would you code it or just state that it conforms to a previous edition of the regulations?

 

[netblindpaul]

“the industry” will be pushing hard for severe coding of this because the lack of fire resistant supports has killed fire fighters who were trying to resuce trapped persons who then also died.
The guidance will be C3, and may even be C2.

 

[Nigel]

It will be coded as a C3 for me. Regardless of location.

As this Reg is designed for the safety of fire fighters I see it as a Reg not for electrical safety so therefore a C1 or a C2 would be inappropriate.

 

[westward10]

“the industry” will be pushing hard for severe coding of this because the lack of fire resistant supports has killed fire fighters who were trying to resuce trapped persons who then also died.
The guidance will be C3, and may even be C2.

Where will this guidance be published.

 

[netblindpaul]

Where will this guidance be published.

I suspect that it will make its way into Electrcial Safety First publications, & guidance from the scams.

 

[netblindpaul]

It will be coded as a C3 for me. Regardless of location.

As this Reg is designed for the safety of fire fighters I see it as a Reg not for electrical safety so therefore a C1 or a C2 would be inappropriate.

I see what you mean, but, coding relates to the ongoing safety of the electrical installation, and thus the danger it poses.
If the guidance published by the “industry” says C2, with reasons and explanation, you may have a difficult time justifying a lower code?
Especially when the requirements for this have been implied for many years before it became detailed in BS7671.

 

[Nigel]

I see what you mean, but, coding relates to the ongoing safety of the electrical installation, and thus the danger it poses.
If the guidance published by the “industry” says C2, with reasons and explanation, you may have a difficult time justifying a lower code?
Especially when the requirements for this have been implied for many years before it became detailed in BS7671.

I agree that if the guidance states it clearly otherwise it would be difficult to go against that guidance.

 

[westward10]

What guidance.

 

[suffolkspark]

As an add on to this, what about installs that have been brought upto standard with the metal trunking clips... But utilising red wall plugs.... Or metal containment usin the same... Did we ever decide on that one?

 

[Wilko]

As an add on to this, what about installs that have been brought upto standard with the metal trunking clips... But utilising red wall plugs.... Or metal containment usin the same... Did we ever decide on that one?

It won't be obvious if there is a red plug under it or not, so you'd have to dismantle to find out. That'll be so much fun, not.

 

[Nigel]

As an add on to this, what about installs that have been brought upto standard with the metal trunking clips... But utilising red wall plugs.... Or metal containment usin the same... Did we ever decide on that one?

C3 for me if they are a part of the inspection.

 

[netblindpaul]

AFAIK the tests done by BRE found that plastic wall plugs were fine, the general thoughts are they will last the 30 minute survivability window that the wiring is required to stay in place for.

 

[Spoon]

AFAIK the tests done by BRE found that plastic wall plugs were fine, the general thoughts are they will last the 30 minute survivability window that the wiring is required to stay in place for.

Isn't there a thread on here were we discussed this. Someone did a test and they were found to be inadequate in a fire.

 

[netblindpaul]

Isn't there a thread on here were we discussed this. Someone did a test and they were found to be inadequate in a fire.

I seem to recall the opposite.
I will have to find the test results now!

 

[Spoon]

The use of plastic wall plugs for the 18th.... - https://www.electriciansforums.co.uk/threads/the-use-of-plastic-wall-plugs-for-the-18th.165928/

Here is the one I was talking about.

 

[Ian1981]

Well for me I code a high concentration of cables not supported against premature collapse in the event of a fire in escape routes a C2 , using a judgment call in the amount of cables that if collapsed, would cause a danger.
A single piece of cable in a piece of trunking then I would not give it the same code as the risk of danger in my view is diminished.
The term escape route is removed from bs 7671 2018 regarding applying this regulation but I will apply the same principle when coding to the new regulations and for cables to be supported throughout the installation and being sensible about it.

 

[Spoon]

Well for me I code a high concentration of cables not supported against premature collapse in the event of a fire in escape routes a C2 , using a judgment call in the amount of cables that if collapsed, would cause a danger.
A single piece of cable in a piece of trunking then I would not give it the same code as the risk of danger in my view is diminished.

If I was going to use your philosophy mate then I would code any cable in an escape route as C2.
You say "A single piece of cable in a piece of trunking then I would not give it the same code as the risk of danger in my view is diminished." Where do you draw the line? Is 1 cable of 2.5mm classed as 'risk of danger diminished'? If so then are 2 cables of 1mm also classed as 'risk of danger diminished'?

 

[suffolkspark]

Firefighters do have side cutters on there BA kit, so 1 cable is obviously better than 20, but i dont think that should effect our coding. If its there with no propper fire proof support then its a C2 from me, 1 cable or 100 cables.

 

[Ian1981]

If I was going to use your philosophy mate then I would code any cable in an escape route as C2.
You say "A single piece of cable in a piece of trunking then I would not give it the same code as the risk of danger in my view is diminished." Where do you draw the line? Is 1 cable of 2.5mm classed as 'risk of danger diminished'? If so then are 2 cables of 1mm also classed as 'risk of danger diminished'?

I use my judgment in that obviously say 30 cables above a suspended ceiling without the required support of fire retardant fixings is a much larger danger than a 1mm cable unsupported on a wall anywhere in the building.
I did say that the term escape route is removed and this regulation is now applicable to throughout the installation.
I can’t see the logic of a C2 to say a piece of trunking containing a 10mm cable in a cupboard going from the floor to the loft for a shower supply

 

[Wilko]

Is there any leeway during installation? A vertical run wouldn't seem to be a risk (?) nor a cable running horizontally behind kitchen cupboards for example. Or is it "just do it all" to ensure compliance?

 

[Spoon]

Is there any leeway during installation? A vertical run wouldn't seem to be a risk (?) nor a cable running horizontally behind kitchen cupboards for example. Or is it "just do it all" to ensure compliance?

I'm presuming it's to stop fire fighters getting entangled in cables...
I understand your thoughts on cables behind kitchen cabinets but not totally sure what the deal it. I suppose it's best to go "just do it all", then you are covered..

 

[suffolkspark]

Fire fighters stick to the walls so still possible to get tangled. Woupd be nice if the powers that be could give us some concrete advice on this

 

[Spoon]

Woupd be nice if the powers that be could give us some concrete advice on this

 

[Selfmade]

I'm a bit late here, but just thought I'd add my own thinking as food for thought. I may well be wrong.

EICRs: C1 if it is anywhere likely to impede escape or fire fighting activities; the logic being that another fault does not have to occur for this to be dangerous - a fire could originate from a source unrelated to the electrical installation. C3 if unlikely to impede escape/fire fighting; just a recommendation but not actually dangerous to leave it.

New work: Use metal clips and raw plugs pretty much everywhere, including in cupboards and behind kitchen cabinets. I think the latter are normally regarded as furniture as far electrical installations are concerned (but please don't ask for reference for that). Still haven't made up my mind on lofts and basements yet...

 

[davesparks]

EICRs: C1 if it is anywhere likely to impede escape or fire fighting activities; the logic being that another fault does not have to occur for this to be dangerous - a fire could originate from a source unrelated to the electrical installation. ...

A C1 is for immediately dangerous items, this is not immediately dangerous. It only becomes dangerous IF something else happens, that something else being a fire, so it is potentially dangerous.

 

[Selfmade]

A C1 is for immediately dangerous items, this is not immediately dangerous. It only becomes dangerous IF something else happens, that something else being a fire, so it is potentially dangerous.

But that something (the fire) is not (necessarily) related to the electrical installation. If there was an exposed live part something else would have to happen to make it dangerous - someone would have to touch it - but that doesn't make it a C2. That said I don't do EICRs, so I'm probably wrong...