Five fold increase in fusebox fires

[SirKit Breaker]

Probably cos the installation instructions are in English, so no one can understand them :-(

 

[D Skelton]

Mr DS, I'm surprised at you! You normally give a very rational and professional point of view, yet here you are just giving a 'sensational' headline followed by a weighted prod towards your viewpoint.

Statistics are meaningless, unless the data is collected and collated under extremely controlled conditions. Also the full article states as the main cause:

"The increase is thought to be because many homes have fuse boards with components which are subject to a product recall."

It does give the other reasons releating to poor wiring and firms using moulded plastic but it intimates that the main reason is as above.

I'd be interested as to what your "????????????" imply?

If it is aimed at Electrical Trainee, then I'm sure you are probably partly right, but from the article it looks like the main reason is due to poor product recall of faulty parts.

Are 5WWs fully to blame? No, of course not, but the enormous rise would be just too much of a coincidence if they didn't have at least something to do with it!

Product recall my backside. Yes there are some which will have dodgy components within but enough for a five fold increase?? No chance.

As for citing moulded plastic as a reason, I've never heard such crud in all my life! It may be worth reminding people that our cables are insulated with blimmin' plastic. It doesn't just catch fire for sh*ts and giggles does it? It doesn't start fires, it just burns easier than metal, and the notion that using metal or fire resistant boards will cut down on 'fusebox' fires is just bogus! A monkey putting in a metal board is just painting a turd gold really isn't he, chances are the wiring will be just as crap within.

I wouldn't even want to hazard a guess as to what proportion of these fires were caused by faulty wiring, but I'd be willing to bet that it's gonna be more than just a few. 5WWs maybe? DIYers, almost definitely!

All the more reason to pull the plug on this Electrical Trainee malarkey and prevent the sale of certain electrical goods to anyone who doesn't hold a licence.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

You may well be right but it does look a little like you are eager to accept the 'five fold increase' but not so eager to accept the reasons given.. all in the same article.. written by the same person.

IF (and thats a mighty IF) the x5 increase is correct then perhaps:

1. DIY installers
2. Poorly trained installers or just poor installers (Electrical Trainee 50%/other50%??)
3. Too few EICR's or service/check (whatever you want to call it) of consumer units.
4. Poor product recall.
5. Moulded plastic?? Agree this does seem a bit odd.

Plus I'd be interested in the statistics for the rest of the country?
If the the criteria for these statistics has changed over the past few years?
Are better records being kept?
Are managers pushing firemen harder to keep records due to government pressure? (I know I am where I work)
etc etc..

 

[ipf]

I wonder if the fire service also asked homeowners and landlords to check whether their 'Installer' is listed on the Competent Persons Scheme (or whatever it's called)?!?!?!

Instructed person and skilled person, soon. Anyone like to hazzard a guess to just what the difference is going to be....at ground level.
Are we going to get vans with 'domestic instructed person' signs all over the place ? Fat chance!

 

[jimmymac]

Has anyone considered the fact that we are in an economic disaster with unemployment high, wage increases capped, the cost of private renting raising daily, along with the cost of utilities. I'm guessing that a lot of these fire are caused by people wiring the electricity meter to try and save a few quid which could mean they can give themselves a healthy meal (or 20 Benson & Hedges and a bottle of cheap cider)

 

[Deleted member 9648]

A combination of lack of understanding and poor gear. As someone already stated older boards and high current terminations were once made of chunky brass with two terminal screws. Today most terminals are rubbish,not deep enough and poor screws which rarely fit any screwdriver obtainable on planet earth.Any movement of the conductor after tightening the screw will immediately loosen the grip on the copper due to the leverage imposed on inadequate clamping. This is where understanding and care comes in. If the tails are secured so there can be no movement,and the very last job before fitting the cover is to check the tightness of terminations then there wont be any fires. As for torqueing screws...tripe...this requirement assumes unskilled installation.Another issue is the 'slot under the mcb screw copper busbar' on some cheaper boards.....how any manufacturer can think they are a good idea is beyond me.

 

[davesparks]

Fuseboards have been made of plastic since the days when they were still using wooden boards and actually had fuses in them (Wylex half wood/half plastic anyone?), but the plastic is to blame for the increase in fires on the last couple of years? What a loada BS!

 

[7029 dave]

Wylex, old boards 2 screw, solid bus bar, nice solid cu. Must be away of making them to17th edition.

 

[NDG Elecs]

I reckon a lot of it will be down to loose terminals. All the burnt out switchgear I have seen is usually melted around the terminals. Bus bars are quite often not sitting right in the various cage clamps. Some folk are generally limp wristed and they need a good torqueing to!

Tighten up, gentle wiggle, retighten, wait 10 mins and the last lil tweak. Sorted!

Nice to know that the ole wooden backed 3036's are safe! Haha!

 

[Knobhead]

Tighten up, gentle wiggle, retighten, wait 10 mins and the last lil tweak. Sorted!

Now go and learn how to use a torque driver properly.

 

[Rockingit]

I think its a combination of all these factors, with the fault laying with the DIY sheds. And here's why: Properly trained Spark is now competing against Electrical Trainee who is competing against DIY. Sheds sell stuff to the DIY at the same price that the Spark buys from his wholesalers. Margins disappear so build quality drops. So you now have a situation where poorly 'trained' people are installing inferior equipment. If the only place these products were available was in the wholesale chain then at least the manufacturers wouldn't be quite so squeezed and the installers could be made aware of recall issues.

 

[Engineer54]

DIY Daves have been around from time immemorial, they haven't been a problem in the past and i don't see them being any major problem now. The typical DIY Dave would have to be complete and utter idiot in the first place, to even attempt a CU change. I'd go as far as saying that very few DIY'ers go that far.

Banning the sale of electrical goods from the sheds and/or to the general public is a BAD idea all round, and one that will come back and bite the journeyman electrician firmly in the arse.

It would be a far better idea and will be far more productive to clean up the electrical industry as it stands at the moment, before you start aiming the blame at everyone else. At the end of the day the general public doesn't owe electricians a living.....

 

[Rockingit]

DIY Daves have been around from time immemorial, they haven't been a problem in the past and i don't see them being any major problem now. The typical DIY Dave would have to be complete and utter idiot in the first place, to even attempt a CU change. I'd go as far as saying that very few DIY'ers go that far.

Banning the sale of electrical goods from the sheds and/or to the general public is a BAD idea all round, and one that will come back and bite the journeyman electrician firmly in the arse.

It would be a far better idea and will be far more productive to clean up the electrical industry as it stands at the moment, before you start aiming the blame at everyone else. At the end of the day the general public doesn't owe electricians a living.....

Whilst I broadly agree with that, and I too very definitely agree that the public doesn't owe us a living, I think the big game changer over the last decade has simply been the internet - no longer is it a 'dark art' to Mr DIY when he can just Google some step by step instructions or watch a YouTube 'tutorial'. And whilst the sheds shouldn't be 'banned' from selling electrical items, they should have a code of conduct imposed on them - for example (and I think I've said this on here before) a sixteen year old cannot go to the counter to buy glue (glue sniffing) or a knife, yet they can walk out with a CU, couple of 50m drums of T&E, all the trimmings and outlets for probably less than £200.00 and rewire their Nan's bungalow over a weekend (theoretically speaking, of course - it'd be a miracle if you could actually manage to kick said sixteen year old out of bed before the Shed closed).

 

[D Skelton]

Banning the sale of electrical goods from the sheds and/or to the general public is a BAD idea all round, and one that will come back and bite the journeyman electrician firmly in the arse.

Certain electrical goods mate.

The more I've thought about this over time the more I've started to come round to the idea that it would be a bad idea to ban the sale of all electrical equipment to the general public. Lights, switches, sockets etc.. I was thinking that it's fair to say that a competent DIYer is well within his rights to change a socket or switch. Well, that was until the other day. The other day I was carrying out a periodic inspection in a property where the lighting circuits had no cpc yet just weeks ago the owner had gone round and changed every socket, light and switch for metal ones. Every light switch and light fitting had to be changed back to plastic. He was completely oblivious to the danger posed when he carried out the work.

And you say banning is a bad idea?!

I fail to see how this will come back to bite the spark in the backside??

Ok, I understand the need for the general public to be able to get hold of plug tops, fuse wire, cable clips and bits and bobs, but distribution boards and cable?? No.

In my opinion, the best solution is a mandatory licence, restricted only to those with a core qual, an NVQ3 (or equivalent) and an AM2, and the sale of electrical equipment restricted only to those with the aforementioned licence. The holder of the licence would be obligated to keep up to date with current regs and maybe sit an AM2 style assessment with an additional few written papers every five years or something.

The one bad thing with this style system I can see would be retired sparks being unable to carry out work in their own homes. I suppose the whole idea however would be about doing the greatest amount of good for the greatest amount of people though. A shame a few thousand retired sparks can't carry out work on their own homes without keeping up with the licence requirements, but at the same time many hundreds of thousands of people are prevented from potentially killing themselves and their families??

Whatever happens and whatever your current view, one thing is for sure, and that is that a serious debate involving a diverse range of people from across the industry needs to happen. From the big companies to the small, from the H&SE to the general public, from the writers of the regs to the followers of them, from the fire fighters picking up the pieces of dodgy DIY work to the spark putting right the wrongs of the 5WWs. We as an industry, as a collective of people with varying experiences and skills, we need to sit down in a massive room and decide as a gorup what is best for the public, not the private money grabbing scam companies profiting enormously from the misery of others!!!

 

[DPG]

If you want to ban the public from buying switches and sockets, you will need to stop them buying brake pads for cars as well. And many other things. Daz