Food for Thought

[Spazz]

Yes another EICR question about landlords

Everyone knows about my fight to get RCDs and EICRs monitory.

But here is a question to see if it is already a legal requirement for EICRs!

I know there is no law stating that EICRs must be carried out but there is a law stating the electrical installation must be maintained and in safe working order.

So my question is how do you maintain and ensure that an electrical installation complies with this legal requirement without inspecting it since it was put into operation in the first place?
How do you know that it is still safe and maintained to the standard which is expected?

 

[Knobhead]

I’ve never used rouge! Makes me look like a bad tempered rogue!

 

[trev]

Trev ...... aah've telt ye a thoosand times .. divven't exaggerate bonny lad !!!

Howay Geordie divvent dunsh us hinny
The lasses caal it bloosha niw ye knaa

 

[UNG]

I like the way you say that Tony - i am in early discussions with my LA to bring in free MEICRs into all properties in my county - I will make pittance of this, at most it will pay my fuel and calibration of my MFT.

Money - dont think so.

What is an MEICR and is it worth the paper it's printed on

So the only spark able to do this will be you?....
And there;s no monetary value?
Interesting that you're prepared to do all this out of the goodness of your heart mate

So this is going to roll out across the country for free if it passes into law I see it now www.charitysparks.com try the link to find sparks offering this service

trev if you have seen my background then you would understand

Understand what exactly that you will work for nothing

The MEICR is only to get the LA an idea of how many properties meet the criteria - this will be a one off event which will tell the LA the following:
Who has RCD
Who has bonding
Who has a upto date CU
Who has an unsafe installation.

The landlord will then be able to get the work done or have it ordered that the work is done when the licencing comes in later this year.
Yes of course i will be in the loop and will most likely profit off it some way or another with the landlords getting the work done but that is not the reason for doing it at all!

So no RCD and / or no up to date CU will be seen as a Dangerous problem then even though the installation is safe and meets the regs that were in force at the time of the original installation.

Will you declare your interest in getting this law enacted or will declaring your interest be prejudicial you getting work

We have a load of rouge builders around here who are installing Electric, Gas, Windows, etc and not getting any of it notified through BC. We also have a large number of registered sparkies signing off installs they had nothing to do with for a small fee of £100. (NOT ME!)
These sparks dont even go on site all results are made up! This is my problem - unregistered DIYers doing work and registered sparks signing it off without even seeing it!

When you have seen the type of work which is subjected to this then you will see why i am doing this!

Do you think you are the only person that has seen this sort of work give us a break a lot of us have been in this game for a lot longer than you will be

Like I keep saying - Part P is not the problem - The problem is that people can do their own electrical work - thats not Part P - Thats that bloody European Law I can never remember the name of.

Part P has to have the sign off with LABC to comply with that Law

If I could I would try and change that European Law but I wont have a chance in hell! 27 counties obay it and it works in most of them as they are 3rd world countries.

If we didn't join the EU then and only then would there be a chance of changing the fact of joe blogs doing electrical work for mrs tight-arse

Part P has made it easy for the poorly qualified and under qualified to masquerade as electricians and for training companies to scam people out of their money for the courses

The things that I am tying to do dont forget is RCDs and EICRs

Its not costing me anything at all to do this!

If it goes ahead then fantastic - if it dont then as long as it raises an awareness then great!

Nothing lost either way

You are suggesting an installation without an RCD is unsafe when in my opinion an installation with a faulty RCD is worse how about campaigning for a self testing RCD that tests itself every 3 months or make it a legal requirement that the tennant has to press the test button every three months
Time is money so it IS costing you

believe it or not the main reason I am looking at this RCD and EICR in rental properties is that landlords have the lives of their tenants in their hands!
Some landlords (including mine) really dont care about the tenants - as long as they get their money every month then they are happy!

If they have to pay out then get out of the way!

Dont get me wrong these landlords are in the minority but they give a bad name to everyone else!

You will see that the good landlords have RCDs in there property and electrics checked every few years (along with gas)

others (take mine for example) electrics installed in 1967 and never been checked since - no RCD, no bonding, nothing and they have no intention in doing it either.
(mine been done now at my cost! - landlord paid for parts only)

How many injuries have occurred in the rental property you live in since the electrics were installed in 1967 the answer is probably none so there you have a statistic as to the level of safety afforded before you fitted an RCD

The problem these days is blame has to be laid at somebodies door if a tenant plugs in a faulty appliance it appears that their stupidity and possible injury or death is the landlords fault because he didn't fit an RCD and no doubt an RCD that isn't tested by the tenant every 3 months would be the landlords fault if it failed between EICR's.

Nicholas your whole arguement seems to based on 17th edition regs and their requirement for RCD's yet most of the installations in the UK comply with prior versions of the regs some before RCD's or ELCB's were available

The 17th edition and it's application and the teaching of electricians now appears to have an Orwellian 1984 attitude of 17th good and 16th, 15th, 14th edition is bad so issue EDN's and / or suggest the installation is unsafe.

One thing that hasn't changed throughout all the versions of the regs for the last 60 years or more is the electricity that comes out the cable supplying your property the thing that has changed is the lack of common sense and you appararently can't teach this or legislate for it but if you could develop this then you may be onto a winner in reducing injury or death from electricity

 

[UNG]

2. Electrician is a general title - its down to the spark and customer to do their checks first - some do - some dont!

Never used to be a general title when I started it meant you had done your 5 years and had gained sufficient knowledge and experience

3. This 17th Ed course is a joke! It only tests your ability to find something in a book - nothing more! The inspect test (2391) is alot better layout now where you have to know your stuff!
I think you should not be allowed to register with any scheme provider untill the 2391 is done! - yes that includes me as well as I am taking my exam in 2 weeks time! The ones who havn't done their 2391 should be made to work under someone else first! There are some on my course who are doing installs but no MFT to test their work - their attitude is Im not doing notifiable work - no MWC issued or EIC, etc. They dont test anything!

May be this is where your campaign would be better targeted proper qualifications and get back to "proper" qualified electricians

 

[Mr.Ian]

I'm sure the regs don't class wired fuse non RCD installs as unsafe, do they?
Why is there the thinking that RCDs are so fantasticly safe? yes they are safer in certain situations but are only classed as additional protection aren't they, and even with RCDs Joe Plonker will still be able to get a shock if they're being stupid with electricity.
Surely if you're trying to force all landlords to get their C/Us updated to current spec you'd need to get the regs re written to state their install is illegal / unsafe.
The Part P(athetic) system in the UK is a joke

 

[Spazz]

.... and untrained & unskilled people can walk into the corner shop that sells car parts, hand over some money & walk out again with new brake pads etc. for their car, take them home & fit them to their own cars, their families cars, their neighbours cars, their friends cars and nobody bats an eyelid.

What do you propose doing about that ??

That is a crap example - have you ever fitted a pair of brake pads - you cant get them wrong! If you do then the brake caliper wont go back on - break shoes on the other hand are a pain in the a***

 

[Spazz]

OK lads 'n' lasses ...... I notice that some of you think our Friend Nicholas is trying to make money out of this campaign of his & I think this may be my fault.

In one of his posts, he stated this: "Everyone knows about my fight to get RCDs and EICRs monitory."

I think he meant MANDATORY, but me being the sarky "B" that I am posted in post #3: "So your fight is all about making money then ??? :tongue3: "

Hope that clears-up any confusion.

(BTW Nicholas, they are not "rouge traders" - they are "rogue traders". Rouge is the red stuff that lasses used to rub on their cheeks in olden times .. you know .... when me & Tony were bairns!!)

Thanks Geordie - for those who dont know already I am dyslexic - so I rely heavily on the spell check

I am always miss spelling words

 

[trev]

Nicholas, the point Geordie was trying to make is that a moving car is potentially a guided missile. One that causes a vast amount more deaths and injurys annually than electrical installations yet we are allowed to work on our cars without any restrictions. Granted, there is the MOT requirement but I think he makes a valid point

 

[Spazz]

I think there are a load on here who is either looking for a reason to have a bitch or generally dont get the idea of why I am doing this!

As has been said all landlords have the lives of their tenants in their hands (which everyone agrees with)
Yes Electricity in general is very safe but only in the hands of those who respect it! there are properties out there with no RCD protection, none compliant sockets (no safety covers in them), and no bonding throughout - some without even a cpc in the circuits. - glad to say these are fair and far in between!

Now think about it if you have a child (say <2 years old) and puts their fingers into a none compliant socket the only thing that will save their life is a RCD which operates correctly and disconnects within 40ms (at that current).

Yes we all know RCDs have their floors and yes we all know they slow down but done we all with age!

At the end of the day if a child is killed the landlord will be up on a manslaughter charge - now how many years do you think that landlord will face? 6 years or 10 years or more? Plus how do you think that landlord will feel?

Me personally I would not worry about the jail sentence - the guilt of someone being killed because I could not be bothered to fit a RCD or change the sockets is what will kill me! - I would be another statistic of those who hung them self in jail!


So now re-look at this again and see why I am doing this - protection for that child and protection for that landlord!



Yes I know that deaths as a result of electric is low - THANK GOD! but they are still happening and that is to many as far as I am concerned.

Just found some statistics released in Feb 2012 - 20% of electric shocks happen in rented properties.
Thats 4 deaths per year (15 elsewhere)
Thats 558 injuries per year (2,230 elsewhere)
Thats 4,285 electrical fires (17,139 elsewhere)
Thats 10 people killed as a result of electrical fires (39 elsewhere)

These stats are from ESC

 

[Spazz]

Nicholas, the point Geordie was trying to make is that a moving car is potentially a guided missile. One that causes a vast amount more deaths and injurys annually than electrical installations yet we are allowed to work on our cars without any restrictions. Granted, there is the MOT requirement but I think he makes a valid point

I fully agree, its just the example he used was not the best.

I know working on cars can be really dangerous and can cause more accidents but in general working on cars is fairly safe - if something goes wrong it usually goes so wrong that you notice it (or the onboard computer does) before the car moves anywhere - deaths from poor car repairs is realtivally low - but I get what you mean!

 

[Spazz]

Has anyone seen the new app that the ESC has released for landlords to self check their electrics - Im downloading it now to have a look

Guidance for landlords : Electrical Safety Council

 

[Geoffsd]

I think there are a load on here who is either looking for a reason to have a bitch or generally dont get the idea of why I am doing this!

Typical politician's reply - anyone who disagrees with me is stupid and ignorant.

Or it could be that they are correct

 

[trev]

Nicholas you say some interesting things in post 49. I don't think anyone is having a bitch about what you're trying to acheive, I think that you're not getting the futility of your goal no matter how praiseworthy it is. You are up against massive organisations who will fight tooth and nail to preserve the status quo EG one of the biggest landowners in this country is the church of england another is the queens various trading styles
When was the last time you saw a socket outlet with no shutters? I can't recall ever seeing one and I'm coming up to 30 years since I qualified.
You state that 20% of all electric shocks occur in rented properties. What about the other 80%? Not bothered about those?

 

[telectrix]

if RCDs came with a government tax/duty of 400odd%, like petrol and smokes, you can be certain they'd make them compulsory.

 

[Spazz]

When was the last time you saw a socket outlet with no shutters?

Friday when I installed a ciling rose in a rental property - managed to persuade them to change them as well

What about the other 80%?

I keep saying - these are as important as the 20% rental properties but things can only be done about those who have responsibility over someone else's life
These include:
Rental Properties
Commercial
Industrial
Hospitals
Social Clubs
etc

these dont include privately owned domestic houses where the owner lives at the address

 

[Spazz]

if RCDs came with a government tax/duty of 400odd%, like petrol and smokes, you can be certain they'd make them compulsory.

LIKE!


Where is your like button telectix

 

[trev]

If I go into a shop on Northumberland Street chances are it's rented, if it's in the Metrocentre then it definitely is. The owner of the premises has a legal duty of care to ensure as far as is reasonably practical that I will come to no harm. I've seen some pretty bad install in shops mate. Are you going to include these in your campaign? If not, why not?

 

[telectrix]

LIKE!


Where is your like button telectix

if you've posted almost simultaneously, you might not see the like button. do a refresh and it appears as if by magic.

 

[Spazz]

I would love to include these - but as said above commercial is not notifiable and it does not look like it will be

My personal opinion is that they should be notifiable!


Either way these shops have a duty of care exactly as you say!
If they are as bad as you say then a quiet word to the local EHP is in order!

The problem is at the moment a lot of people are coming from Europe and the rest of the world and they are used to doing their own electrics so they come here in search of a better life and they carry on with what they know!

If these became notifiable then all these problems will disappear as electricians will be carrying out the instead of Joe Blogs from the pub or Mr Muhammad from the corner shop doing his own electrics - I AM NOT RACIST!

 

[trev]

My point is, these are not notifiable as you say but why are you not crusading to make it notifiable or as I suggested earlier, to make Part P a meaningful, workable, enforceable piece of legislation.
Something that we all would happily get behind

 

[Spazz]

I will contact some of my contacts who have helped with the current and see what they suggest because the government have just reviewed Part P in England, Im sure Wales will follow suit - I will comment on the Welsh one when it comes out for pre-view.

It might be worth waiting till 2015 till the next review comes out for England.

 

[telectrix]

part pee should be scrapped completely. take labc out of the equation. make it same as gas safe.

 

[Spazz]

If you scrap Part P then you scrap the notifiable works scheme then everything will get out of control!
Have you read the new Proposed Part P document - sounds alot better! It is proposing removing the LABC signing off notifiable jobs by not registered persons and getting approved inspector electricians already with a Part P provide to test and inspect them instead!

This then puts the control into the hands of those who have done the Inspect Test and who are registered approved inspectors.


Take a read of the proposed guidelines and you will see

 

[Spazz]

Also you say make it like Gas - it is like gas now!
I could do a gas install and sign it off with LABC - the only difference with gas is it contains a mandatory PAT test on the appliances (for rental).

The only difference is that people dont try their luck with doing gas themselves (usually) compared to electric.

 

[Mr.Ian]

I know this might not be a perfect analogy but - I remember the old open non shuttered sockets, as do a lot of other people that survived ''''the horrors of a earlier system''' and i'm dam sure most of us came through it unhurt. Electricity isn't a dangerous killer behind that wall socket waiting to kill and all these deaths due to electric shock are they because the person was sodding about and doing something he/she knew nothing about (no way on this earth you'll stop that).
It's Joe Public that need to show respect for electric.
The UK is becoming a strange place though I must admit, all around me here we're now getting 20mph zones and not just around schools so we use more petrol and cars give out more emisions as it's 3rd or 4th gear driving - more petrol used for the same distance.
Why can't people learn to cross the flippin road like we did ??????
So if something that flippin stupid (that causes more damage to the environment) can be put into place to save idiots that can't cross a road then you might very well get your way.
The world's gradually going mad, i'm really glad I grew up in the good old days.

 

[spark 68]

Ha Ha, Mr.Ian,

As soon as we make something idiot proof, nature evolves a better idiot! :iagree:

 

[Geordie Spark]

My point is, these are not notifiable as you say but why are you not crusading to make it notifiable or as I suggested earlier, to make Part P a meaningful, workable, enforceable piece of legislation.
Something that we all would happily get behind

I'd be happy - delighted in fact - to get behind Part P & shove it off Marsden Cliffs

 

[trev]

The H&S bods wouldn't allow that though in case someone was injured. The environmentalists would want it ethically disposed of too

 

[telectrix]

but there's that much hot air in part p , it would probably float off into outer space. now the bureaucrats fat cats making money off all our backs. them i would like to dump over a cliff.

 

[Geordie Spark]

Right lads ... I'm off now ... gannin' t' Sooth Shields for lunch wi' me Pikey GF

See ye's aall later !!!

 

[trev]

Off topic

 

[UNG]

That is a crap example - have you ever fitted a pair of brake pads - you cant get them wrong! If you do then the brake caliper wont go back on - break shoes on the other hand are a pain in the a***

Oh yes you can I have seen the wrong pads supplied and some one attempt to fit them as they would fit in the calliper and must be right cos the guy at the motor factors said they were so it's not a crap example

I think there are a load on here who is either looking for a reason to have a bitch or generally dont get the idea of why I am doing this!

As has been said all landlords have the lives of their tenants in their hands (which everyone agrees with)
Yes Electricity in general is very safe but only in the hands of those who respect it! there are properties out there with no RCD protection, none compliant sockets (no safety covers in them), and no bonding throughout - some without even a cpc in the circuits. - glad to say these are fair and far in between!

Now think about it if you have a child (say <2 years old) and puts their fingers into a none compliant socket the only thing that will save their life is a RCD which operates correctly and disconnects within 40ms (at that current).

Yes we all know RCDs have their floors and yes we all know they slow down but done we all with age!

At the end of the day if a child is killed the landlord will be up on a manslaughter charge - now how many years do you think that landlord will face? 6 years or 10 years or more? Plus how do you think that landlord will feel?

Me personally I would not worry about the jail sentence - the guilt of someone being killed because I could not be bothered to fit a RCD or change the sockets is what will kill me! - I would be another statistic of those who hung them self in jail!

So now re-look at this again and see why I am doing this - protection for that child and protection for that landlord!

So objection and reasoned argument is now bitching

Tenants also have their own lives in their own hands and cannot and should not abdicate responsibility to a landlord due to their stupidity

If a child of that age is unsupervised then the parents or adult left to care for the child must take some responsibility

I assume by a non compliant socket you a referring to one not manufactured to BS1363 and therefore circa pre 1947

RCD's do have their flaws like the test button not being used quarterly to check it's operation a homeowner / tenant test that is never or rarely carried out

At the end of the day a landlord on a manslaughter charge for the death of a child he / she had no direct supervision of would be an injustice IMO and questions would have to be asked of the parents or carer allowing a child to be exposed to danger

I stiil have the same view of this and it appears you are attempting to protect people from their own stupidity

Yes I know that deaths as a result of electric is low - THANK GOD! but they are still happening and that is to many as far as I am concerned.

Just found some statistics released in Feb 2012 - 20% of electric shocks happen in rented properties.
Thats 4 deaths per year (15 elsewhere)
Thats 558 injuries per year (2,230 elsewhere)
Thats 4,285 electrical fires (17,139 elsewhere)
Thats 10 people killed as a result of electrical fires (39 elsewhere)

These stats are from ESC

Yet another set of meaningless stats that actually tell us precisely NOTHING

I fully agree, its just the example he used was not the best.

I know working on cars can be really dangerous and can cause more accidents but in general working on cars is fairly safe - if something goes wrong it usually goes so wrong that you notice it (or the onboard computer does) before the car moves anywhere - deaths from poor car repairs is realtivally low - but I get what you mean!

You are dismissing this IMO with little knowledge or background in the vehicle trade and yet again expect the vehicle computer to protect the user from their own stupidity. I'm surprised you haven't supported this by more of those flawed stats you keep quoting

Friday when I installed a ciling rose in a rental property - managed to persuade them to change them as well

So you found an unshuttered socket that obviously was not a BS1363 socket or if it was, was it faulty if this is the case how long had it been faulty and had the landlord been informed again tenant damage not reported to landlord you are suggesting the landlord takes the rap

I keep saying - these are as important as the 20% rental properties but things can only be done about those who have responsibility over someone else's life
These include:
Rental Properties
Commercial
Industrial
Hospitals
Social Clubs
etc

these dont include privately owned domestic houses where the owner lives at the address

We all have responsibility for ourselves and any minors in our care abdicating responsibility and pointing the finger at others is not an option

If I go into a shop on Northumberland Street chances are it's rented, if it's in the Metrocentre then it definitely is. The owner of the premises has a legal duty of care to ensure as far as is reasonably practical that I will come to no harm. I've seen some pretty bad install in shops mate. Are you going to include these in your campaign? If not, why not?

Mainly badly installed FP on the fire alarms from what I've seen of these places

I would love to include these - but as said above commercial is not notifiable and it does not look like it will be

My personal opinion is that they should be notifiable!


Either way these shops have a duty of care exactly as you say!
If they are as bad as you say then a quiet word to the local EHP is in order!

The problem is at the moment a lot of people are coming from Europe and the rest of the world and they are used to doing their own electrics so they come here in search of a better life and they carry on with what they know!

If these became notifiable then all these problems will disappear as electricians will be carrying out the instead of Joe Blogs from the pub or Mr Muhammad from the corner shop doing his own electrics - I AM NOT RACIST!

I don't thing these issues would disappear by making it notifiable look at Part P


I have said before this is a fatally flawed crusade that has little or no substance other than protecting tenants from their own stupidity

 

[UNG]

If you scrap Part P then you scrap the notifiable works scheme then everything will get out of control!
Have you read the new Proposed Part P document - sounds alot better! It is proposing removing the LABC signing off notifiable jobs by not registered persons and getting approved inspector electricians already with a Part P provide to test and inspect them instead!

This then puts the control into the hands of those who have done the Inspect Test and who are registered approved inspectors.


Take a read of the proposed guidelines and you will see

It's out of control anyway

The proposals are mickey mouse what will be the criteria for approved inspector electricians quick fix course and scam registration

Not sure what I or anybody else will see in the proposed guidelines apart from unneeded red tape as it has always been with Part P

 

[sedgy34]

Yes another EICR question about landlords

Everyone knows about my fight to get RCDs and EICRs monitory.

But here is a question to see if it is already a legal requirement for EICRs!

I know there is no law stating that EICRs must be carried out but there is a law stating the electrical installation must be maintained and in safe working order.

So my question is how do you maintain and ensure that an electrical installation complies with this legal requirement without inspecting it since it was put into operation in the first place?
How do you know that it is still safe and maintained to the standard which is expected?

its down to the landlord simple!!! the landlord should have the eicr carried out no-one can force them to abide to it, but if something were to happen to a tennant the landlord will be prosecuted.
In a few years time i would imagine its going to be compulsary for all landlords.

 

[sedgy34]

AN annual Gas Safe certificate has to be done by landlords and agents, the electrics will follow suit.

 

[Spazz]

UNG - out of interest are you a landlord?

 

[Geoffsd]

UNG - out of interest are you a landlord?

doesn't
It doesn't matter. Does his argument stand or not?

This is where you are going wrong.

 

[Mr.Ian]

We had a gas cert done for a rental property and they told us the bonding to the gas wasn't corrrect. I found that a bit of a laugh really as the same gas fitter installed a new boiler in another property and didn't even question the fact that it had no bonding in at all !!!!!!!
All chaos to me this nowadays.

 

[sedgy34]

i rent a house out so im a landlord, gas safe cert every year on gas appliances, when i lived there i rewired the house so i know its ok. if change of tennant i pop round and have a look

 

[Knobhead]

The world's gradually going mad, i'm really glad I grew up in the good old days.

You and me both!