Fuse blown and neutral wire sheathing melted.

[Jimmy Jones 1234]

Hi guys, hope you can try to shed some light on what might be the problem. Basically nothing is new, all been the same for 3 years since we moved in but over the past few days when the dishwasher was on (or anything plugged into a socket in the kitchen) I noticed a burning plastic smell. Couldn't figure out what it was until a fuse tripped the other day (popped actually - I thought a lamp bulb had blown), I opened up the fuse box panel in the gypsum wall and saw the melted plastic fuse box cover, took that off and saw melted plastic on the wires. The fuse on the right is what tripped but it only has the kitchen sockets on it, nothing big on here only a fridge and the dishwasher, from time to time the toaster and kettle. The one in the middle serves the bathroom lights and on the power to the corridor. There aren't any big loads here at all. I can't figure out why the plastic would melt like this. I tested it again and when I plug anything for long term (like the dishwasher) the fuse gets warm and then eventually hot and I'm guessing will trip again.

I will call an electrician obviously, but when the 'Corona virus' is over, not now - I'm staying home and not inviting strangers to my home either. I have kept the fuse off for now and using an extension lead for the appliances from another socket in the next room.

Attached is a picture.

 

[pc1966]

If your damage-control has got it working OK for now then you should just keep a careful watch on it until it can be fixed properly.

It looked like they are 16A 'B' breakers, there is some small and just legible text on the lower part implying that, so you ought to be able to get replacements easily enough (maybe even mail order in the current COVID-19 situation). Considering what has happened I would not re-use them!

The terminal strip and box needs replacing as well, of course, and probably the wires all need cut back to good insulation and properly joined and extended if they are not long enough to reach the location. Wago make decent terminals and boxes for "maintenance free" joints where they can't be accessed for maintenance, I guess you can get them in Estonia OK.

However if you can get a competent sparky in they ought to deal with all of that for you.

You might also want to insist on a metal fire-proof box now, as the UK has done for the last few years!
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Hopefully you checked all of the neutral block terminals are OK, in case the heat originated from one of them?

 

[Jimmy Jones 1234]

If your damage-control has got it working OK for now then you should just keep a careful watch on it until it can be fixed properly.

It looked like they are 16A 'B' breakers, there is some small and just legible text on the lower part implying that, so you ought to be able to get replacements easily enough (maybe even mail order in the current COVID-19 situation). Considering what has happened I would not re-use them!

The terminal strip and box needs replacing as well, of course, and probably the wires all need cut back to good insulation and properly joined and extended if they are not long enough to reach the location. Wago make decent terminals and boxes for "maintenance free" joints where they can't be accessed for maintenance, I guess you can get them in Estonia OK.

However if you can get a competent sparky in they ought to deal with all of that for you.

You might also want to insist on a metal fire-proof box now, as the UK has done for the last few years!
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Hopefully you checked all of the neutral block terminals are OK, in case the heat originated from one of them?

Thanks for the info, I will certainly do this, I'll order parts online and do it myself for now until the crisis blows over and I can get an electrician in to check everything over. The neutral block terminals - do you mean the same block where the neutral and earth wires are connected? Yes I checked all these for tightness but the top one (where the main neutral wire came in from the garage), this screw wouldn't tighten, the thread was crossed somehow it seemed. Not sure if the heat has done that or whether that might have been the initial fault - the wire seemed securely fastened but when I unscrewed it the screw just turned but did nothing. So I moved the wire down into the next hole in the terminal. I keep a check on it several times a day, all is cold to the touch, no heat (fuses) but still, I'll switch these out to be safe.

 

[pc1966]

Yes, it seems you have a TN-C system where earth and neutral are common within your installation - this is something that is prohibited for most UK setups. So that terminal strip is for both.

Here in the UK you can buy small metal enclosures typically for garages, etc, that would probably do if you can physically fit it into your home. I don't know if they are available in Estonia as much, but here is an example of what I am talking about:

Metal Garage or Shower Unit IP65 Empty Body

Neutral and earth terminals, DIN rail, neutral cable and busbar included

www.cef.co.uk

In your case you would not be using any sort of live busbar as you have 3 separate phase cables for each of the MCB, but otherwise you get the metal box and DIN rail, along with built in terminal strips. Ideally you get glands to seal the cables as they enter, which should always be done for top-entry cables to avoid screws, etc, dropped from above making it in to the unit, but in most cases folk just use grommets for side or bottom holes.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

Estonian electrical material is mainly same as German, CU's are different to ours. Plastic flush or surface mounted CU and conduit cables / NYM are standard for domestic work. Hardly anything is metal, e.g. flush back boxes always plastic. See pics for a flavour, taken at a shed (Bauhaus) near Tallinn. You can buy all components to make what you want, box, main switch, busbars, terminal bars, RCDs, MCBs, RCBOs, everything is on the shelf.

 

[Mike Johnson]

That looks like any Brico Depot or Leroy Merlin electrical isle in France, all available off the shelf.

 

[freddo]

You can buy all components to make what you want, box, main switch, busbars, terminal bars, RCDs, MCBs, RCBOs, everything is on the shelf.

Those photos show more stock quantity and range than any of my local wholesalers.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

It's Bauhaus, knocks the socks off any of our sheds over here. 3 Aisles of screws, you can buy by the kilogram or individually and there's no stupid price penalty for small quantities. All the marine fixings for example are one price per material grade - you just tell the scale whether it's 302SS, 304SS, bronze etc. and chuck in what you want and print the label.

Same for cable - buy a pre-pack or wind it down from the drums - automatic measuring and coiling.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Do they also have the corrugated conduit with draw wire as the French Sheds? Oh and the pre-loaded conduit as well?

 

[Jimmy Jones 1234]

Estonian electrical material is mainly same as German, CU's are different to ours. Plastic flush or surface mounted CU and conduit cables / NYM are standard for domestic work. Hardly anything is metal, e.g. flush back boxes always plastic. See pics for a flavour, taken at a shed (Bauhaus) near Tallinn. You cu suggested however the problem persists and is getting worse. I fear for my life in that it might burn down but I haven't been paid in such a long time i don buy all components to make what you want, box, main switch, busbars, terminal bars, RCDs, MCBs, RCBOs, everything is on the shelf.

Hi man, it's been a while. I did everything yo

Estonian electrical material is mainly same as German, CU's are different to ours. Plastic flush or surface mounted CU and conduit cables / NYM are standard for domestic work. Hardly anything is metal, e.g. flush back boxes always plastic. See pics for a flavour, taken at a shed (Bauhaus) near Tallinn. You can buy all components to make what you want, box, main switch, busbars, terminal bars, RCDs, MCBs, RCBOs, everything is on the shelf.

Hi again, I did what you suggested, everything has been okay for a long time but, today lots of fizzing and popping on the wires in this fuse box. I haven't checked it for ages but it seems worse now when i look at it. I can't afford an electrician at the moment with covid, no salary, but I am afraid it might burn the house down. I don't know what to do. I can't just turn the fuse off, everything is connected here, lights, kitchen, bathroom etc, then we are screwed. I don't know what to do, anyone?

 

[Lucien Nunes]

Which wires, where exactly? Post clear close-up pics. Need to distinguish between bad connections at the terminals and any other kind of problem such as bad contact inside the circuit breakers.

 

[Jimmy Jones 1234]

Which wires, where exactly? Post clear close-up pics. Need to distinguish between bad connections at the terminals and any other kind of problem such as bad contact inside the circuit breakers.

Hi - could you see the video? That shows the sparks. I cleaned everythin in here, cicrcuit breakers, terminals + even bought a new terminal but it looks like hell now. It is the very top wire which I believe you figured out last time was neutral from the outside feed into the house which you were concerned might be loose outside and then I'd have a problem with 400w? Jeez, complicated. i have cleaned and made all the wires look nice but now everything looks crappy again, melted, dangerous, again. but unfortunately, this is like a snowball- now I am hearing pops and sizzles every few minutes.I turned off one of the fuses (the one on the right) and now it is quiet, it's the fridge and sockets in the kitchen. I plug the fridge into an extention lead but I am not convinced it's the fridge - nothing else was working at this time only the fridge, it's a small draw.
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Which wires, where exactly? Post clear close-up pics. Need to distinguish between bad connections at the terminals and any other kind of problem such as bad contact inside the circuit breakers.

Okay, at the moment i have figured out that the right hand fuse which feeds the kitchen sockets 'sparks' when i plug something into the kitchen sockets. The fridge is now plugged into an extension to another room. So the sockets in the kitchen are off basically. And no sparking.
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Hi - could you see the video? That shows the sparks. I cleaned everythin in here, cicrcuit breakers, terminals + even bought a new terminal but it looks like hell now. It is the very top wire which I believe you figured out last time was neutral from the outside feed into the house which you were concerned might be loose outside and then I'd have a problem with 400w? Jeez, complicated. i have cleaned and made all the wires look nice but now everything looks crappy again, melted, dangerous, again. but unfortunately, this is like a snowball- now I am hearing pops and sizzles every few minutes.I turned off one of the fuses (the one on the right) and now it is quiet, it's the fridge and sockets in the kitchen. I plug the fridge into an extention lead but I am not convinced it's the fridge - nothing else was working at this time only the fridge, it's a small draw.
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Okay, at the moment i have figured out that the right hand fuse which feeds the kitchen sockets 'sparks' when i plug something into the kitchen sockets. The fridge is now plugged into an extension to another room. So the sockets in the kitchen are off basically. And no sparking.

But, if I turn the fuse on and plug somthing in with power - the cable sparks like in the video...
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Hi - could you see the video? That shows the sparks. I cleaned everythin in here, cicrcuit breakers, terminals + even bought a new terminal but it looks like hell now. It is the very top wire which I believe you figured out last time was neutral from the outside feed into the house which you were concerned might be loose outside and then I'd have a problem with 400w? Jeez, complicated. i have cleaned and made all the wires look nice but now everything looks crappy again, melted, dangerous, again. but unfortunately, this is like a snowball- now I am hearing pops and sizzles every few minutes.I turned off one of the fuses (the one on the right) and now it is quiet, it's the fridge and sockets in the kitchen. I plug the fridge into an extention lead but I am not convinced it's the fridge - nothing else was working at this time only the fridge, it's a small draw.
[automerge]1600468321[/automerge]


Okay, at the moment i have figured out that the right hand fuse which feeds the kitchen sockets 'sparks' when i plug something into the kitchen sockets. The fridge is now plugged into an extension to another room. So the sockets in the kitchen are off basically. And no sparking.
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But, if I turn the fuse on and plug somthing in with power - the cable sparks like in the video...

Lucien?

 

[Pete999]

Hi guys, hope you can try to shed some light on what might be the problem. Basically nothing is new, all been the same for 3 years since we moved in but over the past few days when the dishwasher was on (or anything plugged into a socket in the kitchen) I noticed a burning plastic smell. Couldn't figure out what it was until a fuse tripped the other day (popped actually - I thought a lamp bulb had blown), I opened up the fuse box panel in the gypsum wall and saw the melted plastic fuse box cover, took that off and saw melted plastic on the wires. The fuse on the right is what tripped but it only has the kitchen sockets on it, nothing big on here only a fridge and the dishwasher, from time to time the toaster and kettle. The one in the middle serves the bathroom lights and on the power to the corridor. There aren't any big loads here at all. I can't figure out why the plastic would melt like this. I tested it again and when I plug anything for long term (like the dishwasher) the fuse gets warm and then eventually hot and I'm guessing will trip again.

I will call an electrician obviously, but when the 'Corona virus' is over, not now - I'm staying home and not inviting strangers to my home either. I have kept the fuse off for now and using an extension lead for the appliances from another socket in the next room.

Attached is a picture.View attachment 56699

I see no picture

 

[ChrisElectrical88]

Are you actually in Estonia? I can see any pictures on the tread due to the time since the OP, any chance of some recent ones?

 

[pc1966]

The photos have gone from this site - as have all older photos on all threads - for reasons best known to Dan, etc.

I was sent the video by PM, but it would be more useful posted here. It shows what looks (from memory) like the original setup from the start of the thread but arcing on the top wire. Clearly a bad connection at that screw terminal, either not correctly tightened or the wire has developed some sort of high resistance layer on it now.

Without having a copy of the original photos for comparison I can't say if the terminal strip was replaced, but the OP says he did. Either way it needs replaced again due to the heat damage, and the cables look poorly as well.

Some photos posted here might help. The OP is in a difficult situation due to COVID19 but really it is looking like a job for a professional to replace the lot with wires properly joined further back where (hopefully) they are undamaged.
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It is a very serious issue, as they use TN-C so this bad connection on the supply PEN would make the appliances live.

Really the supply to that board should be switched off until it is fixed.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

I see nothing either.

@Chriselectrical yes the installation is in Estonia. The fault is in a small DB in the house with three B16 MCBs, one on each phase, fed TN-C from a cabinet in the garage which is normal Soviet era stuff with 25A TP 4-wire intake and submain. There had been some overheating at the CNE bar in the sub board and we suggested remaking all the connections carefully with freshly prepared ends, paying special attention to the CNE itself.

The fact that the connections are arcing again makes me wonder whether one or more of those cables are aluminium after all. There was debate as to whether it was tinned copper or ali.