general rant....ish

[stanleyblade]

firstly , good evening all, the weekend is here at long last. I am fairly new to this forum, so if i have posted this in the wrong place , then please accept my appologies.
I have a few things to say, a few things to ask, so please be patient and i shall try to be brief, but you may have to get comfy.
I read nearly all the posts etc on this forum and find them a great source of information, if i encounter a problem i look to see if anyone has posted anything that may help, in the process i often find solutions to problems that i have not encountered but may do one day, and as they say forewarned is forarmed . I also occasionally laugh out loud to some great stories and have to then explain to my family exactly what is that has tickled me. I am grateful to all those that post , and those that reply,and have the utmost respect in knowing they have worked extremely hard to get there qualifications and share there knowledge with us all.Thankyou.
BUT I AM A KITCHEN FITTER, No, iI am not part "pee" registered, as some of us have the common sense to know that part p is part of the building regs and not a qualification. I am registered with napit on there competent persons scheme. No , i am not a Electrical Trainee, i am actually a 1ww , as the full scope course i took lasted .....yes a whole week !!! Admittedly you wouldnt give some of the people on the course a fisher price screwdriver, let alone a test meter.This does NOT in any way make me an electrician , electrical installer or any other fancy name that some of my colleagues may give themselves. I have been a fitter for about 20 odd years, and, take a great deal of pride in my job and carry out every aspect of it to the best of my ability and to whatever rules or regulations that may be relevant to each part of the the job. I took the full scope course as i wanted to make sure that anything i did i did in the correct way according to regs , and most importantly safely, not just for me but the customer too. Therefore i do find it a bit sad that we seem to be reffered to in a bit of a jokey way, and put down with the references to Electrical Trainee and part pee. Yes , i agree as said earlier that some shouldnt put a plug in a socket let alone install wiring etc. But , also having said that i totally understand that as time served and qualified people your trade is being eroded , whether by our european friends working for five pounds and a pot noodle per day, or by schemes etc where for five hundred quid or so anyone can be "qualified "to do your job (not)
As i said before , and i will repeat, i respect your hard work , and the help i and others get from you, and again thankyou, and long may this forum be here for all to see and use.
That is my something to say out of the way, now for my question(s),
I have, since tuesday been fitting a kitchen, worth about 23k. i got to installing the appliances yesterday ,integrated fridge, washing machine, 3.6k microwave, 3.65k single oven/grill, inductioin hob and dishwasher. When i looked at how the connections were to be made i was a bit miffed to say the least. The connections for the washmachine, fridge and oven and hob were all by means of a fixed cooker outlet plates, and the microwave by means of a 13 amp switched socket. But no sign of any of isolating switches anywhere in the kitchen. So, i speak to the customer who phoned the builder, who happens to be a relative and he tells me " dont worry about switches , as all the apppliances are run on there own radial circuits directly into c.u via rcbo's as it saves pulling the appliances out to change the fuse if anything were to go wrong with them". (The cu is in the basement). i knew this was wrong , but left it till i got home last night. I then used the forum to look up relevant questions on isolating cookers etc and found references to regs etc. I called the guy that i get my work from and informed him that i would not be connecting appliances as the arrangement for isolation did not conform to regs, and that the oven , hob and microwave should have a means of isolation a maximum of 2 mtrs away, and that other appliances should be able to be isolated by means of switched fused spur, either wall mounted or if not possible in the front of the nearest cupboard .This morning i rang tech at napit and explained situation, and was told the arrangement was not suitable, didnt meet regs, or indeed manufacturers guidance, and that i had done the right thing in not connecting them.
I compiled e-mail stating regs and BS numbers relating to appropriate isolating switches and sent copy to kitchen company .I also explained to customer why i would not be making connections.This evening the builder and electrician turned up and we had words, I told them both that i wasnt preparedpto carry out the connection , and the reasons why. the electrician then informed me that he had done the job like this as the customer did not want any switches on show, and that he had fitted them in the basement next to cu. i said it did not conform to regs, and was basically talked over and ignored as if idid not know what i was talking about and got the distinct impreession the customer was not impressed . His actual words were , if you need to isolated anything all you have to do is walk down to the cellar and turn the relevant switch off??? Also he siad he is prepared to certify the job. Now i am left feeling let down, and bit pi@@ed off to say the least, i want to know what you think as i value your opinions, and what if anything i sould do. I m sorry this has been a megga post but hope you understand, and look forward to any replies

 

[AndyL]

I agree entirely with what you say, I always fit local isolation as I feel this is good practice, the OP was asking if it broke any regs though, which technically it doesn't as far as BS7671 goes, unless it falls foul of any manufacturers instructions.

Best practice is something entirely different, and may be down to personal choices rather than absolute regulations.

Agree too, would always fit locally
Don't see much point in fitting near the CCU, why not just use MCB.

Anyone any thoughts on the reg numbers above, could they not be seen as a requirement for local cooker switch

 

[Tonkatoy27]

Unless I've missed something, the only appliance that has got a 13amp fuse is the microwave, are you saying that the washing machine/fridge etc has only got a 16amp RCBO for protection at the CU? I'm pretty sure the manufacturer will want a 13amp fuse, either in a plug top or fcu.

 

[cogsey133]

I'm pretty sure I would be going for a wet tea cloth or fire blanket !!! Not a switch!

Just to deviate a bit you should never use a wet cloth on a chip pan fire....the water dripping from it into the hot oil only infuriates it more...It should be a Damp Cloth!

 

[RogertheBodger]

Why is it that electric cookers seem to need emergency switching in case of chip pan fires, whereas gas cookers don't?
Esspecially considering that with gas, once the supply is isolated, the source of heat is removed immediately, whereas with electric cookers, it will take some time for the source of heat to cool down.
By the time the ring is cool enough, the house will have burnt down.
Then there's the advisabillity of placing the means of isolation so close to the source of danger.
If I was to install a means of isolation in case of chip pan fires, I'd place it by the entrance/exit to the kitchen.

Also, in this type of emergency, probably 100% of people would go immediately to the cooker controls to remove the heat source because this is a very familiar action to them, whereas thinking about where the electric isolator switch is, during a panic situation, is not.

 

[malcolmsanford]

Agree too, would always fit locally
Don't see much point in fitting near the CCU, why not just use MCB.

Anyone any thoughts on the reg numbers above, could they not be seen as a requirement for local cooker switch

As a domestic cooker would not fall under the scope of BS EN 60204, therefore the regs you quote are for emergency switching and not applicable in this case

These normally fall under the umbrella of Standards , BS EN 50304:2009+A1:2010, BS EN 60350:2009

 

[mechelec]

Is there not a requirement in BS7671 to follow manufacturers instructions? ?

 

[malcolmsanford]

There certainly is and in my mind must be the most unhelpful regulation introduced over the last few years.

As most of our equipment is now being built and manufactured in the Far East and is supplied for global use where it is unlikely we will have the same criteria as say in America or Australia, often these instructions are written not taking into account the difference standards.

I've installed here a month ago several printers for an office and the "Global" instructions was that these units be installed with an Earth Leakage Circuit Breaker. So apart from

a) Chances are you wouldn't need to install them on an RCD at all in the UK, under our regulations, it would seem somewhere in the world you do need to

b) Do you use an RCD or an ELCB. Yes they are technically one of the same thing, unless you can still buy voltage operated units again somewhere in the world .

 

[mechelec]

Agreed Malc it is hard to have faith in manufacturers instructions when they are written in pigeon English. Sometimes you just have to make an engineering decision and do what you as a experienced electrician feel is right.

 

[Tonkatoy27]

There certainly is and in my mind must be the most unhelpful regulation introduced over the last few years.

QUOTE]

Oh how much do I agree with that comment, biggest hassle I have is with domestic extractor fans. If the manufacturer wants it protected by a bloody 3A fuse why the the hell don't they install one in their fan!!!!!!! Grrrrrrrrrr

 

[malcolmsanford]

T that is an even better example.

Ok we know that the Sunday DIY'er would most likely fit a bathroom fan to the hot side of a nuclear reactor for the want of not knowing better, but we have had countless pages of discussion on here from guys

"I have just fitted a new fan in the bathroom, it is on a 5amp MCB and is RCD protected but the manufacturers say we must also now fit a 3amp fuse do I have to go by the manufacturers instructions?"

And every answer is yes .......blah blah blah

As if by fitting that 3 amp BS 1362 it supersedes and betters the protection already there .......................

I need a lie down ......................this dumbing down of my industry is just sad

 

[Richard Burns]

As most of our equipment is now being built and manufactured in the Far East and is supplied for global use where it is unlikely we will have the same criteria as say in America or Australia, often these instructions are written not taking into account the difference standards.

I agree so much, I have just installed a tumble dryer made in USA, clear safety label on the back saying how to connect the two phases and how the neutral is grounded to the earth in the machine!
Luckily it was UK modded and the label did not apply, but I didn't follow the instructions!
Also the manufacturers sometimes specify almost impossible items just so they can say "you didn't follow the instructions, its not covered"

 

[Guitarist]

I agree so much, I have just installed a tumble dryer made in USA, clear safety label on the back saying how to connect the two phases and how the neutral is grounded to the earth in the machine!
Luckily it was UK modded and the label did not apply, but I didn't follow the instructions!
Also the manufacturers sometimes specify almost impossible items just so they can say "you didn't follow the instructions, its not covered"

That is so true mate, and something which should be outlawed. I think if we all started reporting this to trading standards then something just might get done about it.

 

[Dave 85]

firstly , good evening all, the weekend is here at long last. I am fairly new to this forum, so if i have posted this in the wrong place , then please accept my appologies.
I have a few things to say, a few things to ask, so please be patient and i shall try to be brief, but you may have to get comfy.
I read nearly all the posts etc on this forum and find them a great source of information, if i encounter a problem i look to see if anyone has posted anything that may help, in the process i often find solutions to problems that i have not encountered but may do one day, and as they say forewarned is forarmed . I also occasionally laugh out loud to some great stories and have to then explain to my family exactly what is that has tickled me. I am grateful to all those that post , and those that reply,and have the utmost respect in knowing they have worked extremely hard to get there qualifications and share there knowledge with us all.Thankyou.
BUT I AM A KITCHEN FITTER, No, iI am not part "pee" registered, as some of us have the common sense to know that part p is part of the building regs and not a qualification. I am registered with napit on there competent persons scheme. No , i am not a Electrical Trainee, i am actually a 1ww , as the full scope course i took lasted .....yes a whole week !!! Admittedly you wouldnt give some of the people on the course a fisher price screwdriver, let alone a test meter.This does NOT in any way make me an electrician , electrical installer or any other fancy name that some of my colleagues may give themselves. I have been a fitter for about 20 odd years, and, take a great deal of pride in my job and carry out every aspect of it to the best of my ability and to whatever rules or regulations that may be relevant to each part of the the job. I took the full scope course as i wanted to make sure that anything i did i did in the correct way according to regs , and most importantly safely, not just for me but the customer too. Therefore i do find it a bit sad that we seem to be reffered to in a bit of a jokey way, and put down with the references to Electrical Trainee and part pee. Yes , i agree as said earlier that some shouldnt put a plug in a socket let alone install wiring etc. But , also having said that i totally understand that as time served and qualified people your trade is being eroded , whether by our european friends working for five pounds and a pot noodle per day, or by schemes etc where for five hundred quid or so anyone can be "qualified "to do your job (not)
As i said before , and i will repeat, i respect your hard work , and the help i and others get from you, and again thankyou, and long may this forum be here for all to see and use.
That is my something to say out of the way, now for my question(s),
I have, since tuesday been fitting a kitchen, worth about 23k. i got to installing the appliances yesterday ,integrated fridge, washing machine, 3.6k microwave, 3.65k single oven/grill, inductioin hob and dishwasher. When i looked at how the connections were to be made i was a bit miffed to say the least. The connections for the washmachine, fridge and oven and hob were all by means of a fixed cooker outlet plates, and the microwave by means of a 13 amp switched socket. But no sign of any of isolating switches anywhere in the kitchen. So, i speak to the customer who phoned the builder, who happens to be a relative and he tells me " dont worry about switches , as all the apppliances are run on there own radial circuits directly into c.u via rcbo's as it saves pulling the appliances out to change the fuse if anything were to go wrong with them". (The cu is in the basement). i knew this was wrong , but left it till i got home last night. I then used the forum to look up relevant questions on isolating cookers etc and found references to regs etc. I called the guy that i get my work from and informed him that i would not be connecting appliances as the arrangement for isolation did not conform to regs, and that the oven , hob and microwave should have a means of isolation a maximum of 2 mtrs away, and that other appliances should be able to be isolated by means of switched fused spur, either wall mounted or if not possible in the front of the nearest cupboard .This morning i rang tech at napit and explained situation, and was told the arrangement was not suitable, didnt meet regs, or indeed manufacturers guidance, and that i had done the right thing in not connecting them.
I compiled e-mail stating regs and BS numbers relating to appropriate isolating switches and sent copy to kitchen company .I also explained to customer why i would not be making connections.This evening the builder and electrician turned up and we had words, I told them both that i wasnt preparedpto carry out the connection , and the reasons why. the electrician then informed me that he had done the job like this as the customer did not want any switches on show, and that he had fitted them in the basement next to cu. i said it did not conform to regs, and was basically talked over and ignored as if idid not know what i was talking about and got the distinct impreession the customer was not impressed . His actual words were , if you need to isolated anything all you have to do is walk down to the cellar and turn the relevant switch off??? Also he siad he is prepared to certify the job. Now i am left feeling let down, and bit pi@@ed off to say the least, i want to know what you think as i value your opinions, and what if anything i sould do. I m sorry this has been a megga post but hope you understand, and look forward to any replies

My advice would be...you worry about fitting the kitchens, let the electrician worry about wiring them. Its his name on the paperwork.

If I had a kitchen fitter start kicking up a fuss, questioning my methods and bringing into question my competence in front of the builder and client, well, I wouldn't be best pleased.
Especially, as it turns out, he has not actually deviated from any regulations and by the sounds of it has provided a good quality install (individual RCBO'd circs) tailored to the clients requirements.
Just remember, he has been learning how to interpret the regulations for years, you have learnt for a week.

 

[Guest55]

^^^^No mincing of words in Dave's post lol.

 

[Dave 85]

^^^^No mincing of words in Dave's post lol.

You know I've no time for busybodies and jobsworths Biff