general rant....ish

[stanleyblade]

firstly , good evening all, the weekend is here at long last. I am fairly new to this forum, so if i have posted this in the wrong place , then please accept my appologies.
I have a few things to say, a few things to ask, so please be patient and i shall try to be brief, but you may have to get comfy.
I read nearly all the posts etc on this forum and find them a great source of information, if i encounter a problem i look to see if anyone has posted anything that may help, in the process i often find solutions to problems that i have not encountered but may do one day, and as they say forewarned is forarmed . I also occasionally laugh out loud to some great stories and have to then explain to my family exactly what is that has tickled me. I am grateful to all those that post , and those that reply,and have the utmost respect in knowing they have worked extremely hard to get there qualifications and share there knowledge with us all.Thankyou.
BUT I AM A KITCHEN FITTER, No, iI am not part "pee" registered, as some of us have the common sense to know that part p is part of the building regs and not a qualification. I am registered with napit on there competent persons scheme. No , i am not a Electrical Trainee, i am actually a 1ww , as the full scope course i took lasted .....yes a whole week !!! Admittedly you wouldnt give some of the people on the course a fisher price screwdriver, let alone a test meter.This does NOT in any way make me an electrician , electrical installer or any other fancy name that some of my colleagues may give themselves. I have been a fitter for about 20 odd years, and, take a great deal of pride in my job and carry out every aspect of it to the best of my ability and to whatever rules or regulations that may be relevant to each part of the the job. I took the full scope course as i wanted to make sure that anything i did i did in the correct way according to regs , and most importantly safely, not just for me but the customer too. Therefore i do find it a bit sad that we seem to be reffered to in a bit of a jokey way, and put down with the references to Electrical Trainee and part pee. Yes , i agree as said earlier that some shouldnt put a plug in a socket let alone install wiring etc. But , also having said that i totally understand that as time served and qualified people your trade is being eroded , whether by our european friends working for five pounds and a pot noodle per day, or by schemes etc where for five hundred quid or so anyone can be "qualified "to do your job (not)
As i said before , and i will repeat, i respect your hard work , and the help i and others get from you, and again thankyou, and long may this forum be here for all to see and use.
That is my something to say out of the way, now for my question(s),
I have, since tuesday been fitting a kitchen, worth about 23k. i got to installing the appliances yesterday ,integrated fridge, washing machine, 3.6k microwave, 3.65k single oven/grill, inductioin hob and dishwasher. When i looked at how the connections were to be made i was a bit miffed to say the least. The connections for the washmachine, fridge and oven and hob were all by means of a fixed cooker outlet plates, and the microwave by means of a 13 amp switched socket. But no sign of any of isolating switches anywhere in the kitchen. So, i speak to the customer who phoned the builder, who happens to be a relative and he tells me " dont worry about switches , as all the apppliances are run on there own radial circuits directly into c.u via rcbo's as it saves pulling the appliances out to change the fuse if anything were to go wrong with them". (The cu is in the basement). i knew this was wrong , but left it till i got home last night. I then used the forum to look up relevant questions on isolating cookers etc and found references to regs etc. I called the guy that i get my work from and informed him that i would not be connecting appliances as the arrangement for isolation did not conform to regs, and that the oven , hob and microwave should have a means of isolation a maximum of 2 mtrs away, and that other appliances should be able to be isolated by means of switched fused spur, either wall mounted or if not possible in the front of the nearest cupboard .This morning i rang tech at napit and explained situation, and was told the arrangement was not suitable, didnt meet regs, or indeed manufacturers guidance, and that i had done the right thing in not connecting them.
I compiled e-mail stating regs and BS numbers relating to appropriate isolating switches and sent copy to kitchen company .I also explained to customer why i would not be making connections.This evening the builder and electrician turned up and we had words, I told them both that i wasnt preparedpto carry out the connection , and the reasons why. the electrician then informed me that he had done the job like this as the customer did not want any switches on show, and that he had fitted them in the basement next to cu. i said it did not conform to regs, and was basically talked over and ignored as if idid not know what i was talking about and got the distinct impreession the customer was not impressed . His actual words were , if you need to isolated anything all you have to do is walk down to the cellar and turn the relevant switch off??? Also he siad he is prepared to certify the job. Now i am left feeling let down, and bit pi@@ed off to say the least, i want to know what you think as i value your opinions, and what if anything i sould do. I m sorry this has been a megga post but hope you understand, and look forward to any replies

 

[oldtimer]

Here is another view they did a few years ago that i got called out today instead 4 seperate switches there are 4 on the grid great you say but they are MEM and you cannot get them (unless you know)

 

[theroadblock]

i think he said "the road block" is a wind up merchant and needs a slap on the backside with a leather whip...!

Studded leather ?

 

[DurhamSparky]

mem have a new range out now....!! i think my wholesaler still has the old stock on the shelf!!

 

[stanleyblade]

Idi just try to reply to a few comments , but pressed wrong button and lost it all!! I took appendix H4 cooker circuits in household and similar premises to mean that a cooker or hob etc should have control switch or cooker control no more than2 mtrs away from appliance. If i have read this or interpreted it wrong i would rather be put right than carry on thinking wrongly . thanks

 

[stanleyblade]

Biff 55 all integrated fixed appliances

 

[Guest55]

Biff 55 all integrated fixed appliances

What does the customer say about no swtches stan ?
They might be happy with the clean uncluttered look ? They're paying the bill.
But like spinlondon says , theres no technical requirement , its just common practice really.

 

[jamie-spark]

here is what it says in the electricians guide to the building regs

Socket-outlets supplying appliances pushed under a work-surface, eg. dishwashers, tumble dryers and fridges, should be accessible when the appliance is pulled out.

Appliances built into kitchen furniture (integrated appliances) should be connected to a socket-outlet or fused connection unit that is readily accessible when the appliance is in place and in normal use or supplied from a socket-outlet or other connecting device controlled by a readily accessible double pole switch or switched fused connection unit

think its more a guide though

 

[Des 56]

Jamie,the word "should"can become more persuasive than it merits,it aint so persuasive as "must"

Stanley Have you also read the section about permanently connected equipment ?

quote

The connections for the washmachine, fridge and oven and hob were all by means of a fixed cooker outlet plates, and the microwave by means of a 13 amp switched socket.
​

 

[stanleyblade]

the customer wanted exactly that, the uncluttered look, i was just worried that there was no local way of isolating the supply in an emergency without running down to the cellar to isolate appliance. to my mind i thought the switches could have been placed in a base unit towards the front for ease of access.I would rather be over cautious with these things thanjust do what customer wants just because they paying the wages. but on other hand would rather be put right and be told than to go along the wrong path albeit for the right reasons,,,,, if that makes sense??

 

[stanleyblade]

Thanks jamie, this is where i need and appreciate the help this forum gives.To me readily accessible is above worktp or at worst in cupboard , not down in dingy cellar , but get the idea. the cellar is still readily accessible . cheers

 

[theroadblock]

the customer wanted exactly that, the uncluttered look, i was just worried that there was no local way of isolating the supply in an emergency without running down to the cellar to isolate appliance. to my mind i thought the switches could have been placed in a base unit towards the front for ease of access.I would rather be over cautious with these things thanjust do what customer wants just because they paying the wages. but on other hand would rather be put right and be told than to go along the wrong path albeit for the right reasons,,,,, if that makes sense??

You have all the best intentions there mate keep at it, in this case there is no strict 'you must' but albeit, what the customer says is NOT always right and its good that you checked before becoming a yes man /applaud for you my good sir!

 

[Swicade]

I've always put local isolation and will always stress to a customer the merits of doing so.

If they dont want to see them front edge of a cupboard is far far better than going down the steps to a cellar....where some one like my missus would likely leave the brush/ironing board/washing basket/etc/etc all ready for me to trip over as she was 'going to take it all down to the cellar later!'.

Fairplay to ya Stanley for sticking by what you think is best for safety.........almost earns yeself forgiveness for the 1 week course

 

[stanleyblade]

not as yet des, that will now be my light read material for bed time. the microwave was not meant to be wired to a plug , but hard wired into cooker out let plate, as manufacturer install guide stated, so the spark was changing the cable size as it was only in 2.5, and also the socket to a plate. and your right about should and must, took "should " as "must" thanx

 

[stanleyblade]

i lied , 4.5 days, we finished early on the friday :smartass2: but thanx

 

[spark 68]

I would just like to add the manufacturers instructions overule BS7671.