Get 18th, Get testing and inspection, go to work?

[BiddeldyBwah]

Sat contemplating life as normal and started thinking about this.

Anyone can do the 18th and the testing and inspection qualifications.

So is it not theoretically possible to do those and simply specialise in testing and inspection? I mean why go through installation courses etc if you can just get a job doing testing with two paid-for courses?

Or am i missing the mark here? Do you need other specific quals to be able to do the certs? Of course i know that you won't be able to do a CPS without experience first but you could work under someone else acting as QS at a company and do testing all day long, no? I know at our company the boss acts as QS and all the NAPIT etc stuff is under him but the other qualified lads (the ones with 2391 and the 18th edition) do the testing.

 

[Diddy]

We all have different opinions, mine are just based on personal experiences and observations.
I can't please everybody. Maybe some of the issues come from a mass inability to properly focus and concentrate on the task in hand due to a mindless obsession with Social Media and the overwhelming compulsion to constantly check mobile phones, who knows.

So you having issues with apprentices not putting their phone down ? Hmm mines are always too busy in work time. There is NEVER nothing to do...Day 1 week 1.
BTW I am not having a go at YOU as a spark or teacher in your own right. The line you quoted along with the response must be the most often quoted statement concerning apprentices. I must have been very "lucky" with my pupils, All 10 completed their apprenticeship within the recognised time scale with no resits for anything practical nor indeed anything related to fault finding (AM2 and in college testing) - IF they had a question id answer it with my own..get em thinking. Make them feel valued but firm and fair. They all knew there were lines in the sand. Been to 5 weddings on the back of them lads....the other 5 ? Well who knows lol.

Anyway sorry and merry xmas and happy new year. It's obviously a bit of a bug bear of mine..I get that. I recall a distant time when I was the 16yo being told kids these days "we had to walk 10 miles to work with 2 drums of lead sheaved cable under our arms". In the end these kids are what WE produced and any shortcomings surely must sadly reflect on us as a generation not imparting the basics for these kids to build on.
Roll on the wireless sockets.

 

[Dave OCD]

No apologies needed, as I said we all have our own views. As for phones I'm lucky as I only have my 22 year old son working with me who also did his apprenticeship with me. He loves his work and only has a look at his phone at lunch time - and that's generally football related stuff. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you too.

 

[Diddy]

For the sake of completeness one of my lads passed all his stuff, Done sparking for a year and then went on to become a bespoke conservatory installer. I think he does the electrical side himself but still...Maybe I put him off lol. Take care guys have a great next year.

 

[nicebutdim]

IF they had a question id answer it with my own..get em thinking.

By far the best way of teaching anything.

 

[Des 56]

Pardon me if this may have been stated previously, have not read whole of thread
Taking and passing the 2391 and 18th then doing test and inspection without being taught installation ?

Here is what can be found in Guidance note 3 regards the inspector

The inspector must have a sound knowledge and experience relevant to the nature of the installation being inspected and tested

That sentence above on its own seems to cover what the post author asked in his original question
Of course you must have experience, but unlike myself most on here are not going to have experience say of installations from the early seventies

If you lack historical experience on a installation, then make enquiry and find out
Anyone new to test and inspect can do little more
You can't become experienced at anything unless you are first inexperienced and either taught or self taught in order to gain the experience

 

[UNG]

Are you though?

In the case of inspections, you're being paid to assess the condition of an installation - how might one go about this if the intention is to learn as you go? Should the first fifty customers be offered a discounted rate as no guarantee can be given about the thoroughness of an inspection? What use is a report if no one can stand over its findings?

How do you tell the customer that they are getting a discount because you are learning on the job

The intention is always to learn as you go, but others in here are saying competency isn't gained until several years of shadowing some other guy who has the same qualification as you.

I think that's nonsense for reasons i already outlined.

Everyone in the trade is always learning something new no matter how much experience and knowledge they have as things are continuingly changing

The thing with inspection and test you need to have a reasonably broad knowledge base of installations as you could be tasked with producing EICR's on installations that could be 50 -60 years old and in some cases even older, it isn't acceptable to just tell the customer that the installation needs rewiring to the 18th edition when the installation could be perfectly ok for continued use with or without some minor upgrade works

I know a few guy's who don't have the 2391 who can inspect and test every bit as competently if not better than some who have a 2391 ticket, would you pull rank on those guy's because you have the 2391 rather than learn from them

The qualification proves the competency otherwise you wouldn't pass it. Those who want to gate keep electrics think otherwise but that's fine because they only live on the internet.

Do you understand what you are doing when you sign an EICR

I despise this sweeping type of comment. I mean I served my time well within your "good days range" eg much more than 20 years ago.
But - The type of post and statements such as not as skilled/competent/up to standard as they used to be ? Does that mean that all of us who passed our apprenticeships in the 70's and onwards are ---- teachers ? Or are we all of a sudden bringing up our kids to be stupid ?
It's not a zero sum game this point im making, If all the kids coming through trades are not up to standard then who the hell is teaching them ? Who is bringing them up ? Who is making them entitled ?
Might be bigging myself up a tad but thinking back I have had maybe 10 apprentices that I taught from start to finish all of them passed their respective trade tests and completed full apprenticeships ? Does that mean im some sort of god tradesman who can impart knowledge onto pimply teenagers where the rest of the country according to some/many cant ? I don't think it does to be honest.
Too many tradesmen give it "kids these days" "I haven't got the time too...." not like the sparks who taught me who obviously had all the time in the world to get the job done while taking the time to show us how and why.

As for the thread itself ? Obviously testing and inspection is rocket science and not one person would be able to spot the issues with the pictured socket or the poor resistance in the other example listed....OR it could actually just be basic stuff ?

@OP If you do a decent apprenticeship with someone who has at least half an intention of teaching you and on top of that you pass your 2391 and/or whatever other requirement is in place that particular year then you can test and inspect to a reasonable quality.
If you are new you will be slower, but if you are on a fixed price then nobody dies, nobody loses anything. As with anything in life the more you do it the more experience you pick up. Good luck charging much extra for that experience from your typical customer who wants and EICR, Although if you work for a company you might just earn yourself an extra 10p per hour.

But how many of those 10 apprentices have you taught in the last 20 years, like you I have trained a good number of apprentices around the tail end of the 90's and into the 00's I employed 3 apprentice's 2 were average and one was useless and only interested in what he was paid on Thursday and didn't even pass the AM2 after a number of attempts
Talking to a college lecturer I know who was an electrician before going into teaching around 15 years ago and he was counting down to retirement as the quality of the apprentices attending college was consistently falling with a good number having little interest in the trade other than the pay packet
The last 2 lads I mentored back in 2005 / 06 one has become a good electrician the other one who would probably made a better electrician unfortunately suffered a large number of mini strokes before being diagnosed about 12 years ago at 30 years old and was confined to a wheelchair and only has limited speech
So as much as you may despise the comments finding the right guy or gal who really has the commitment to make the grade is a rare find as playing games seems to take precedence to studying these days

 

[nicebutdim]

How do you tell the customer that they are getting a discount because you are learning on the job

I was being facetious. Doing anything of the sort would be ridiculous.

 

[nicebutdim]

I agree that many young people don't have much interest in graft, but it's unfair to tar them all with one brush. As the old bloke in a class full of teenagers it has been surprising to see how many have a genuine interest, both in the classroom and workshop.

There are a few who have little interest, and others who will need some sort of miracle if they are to finish their apprenticeship, but a surprising number are very keen, with some of them showing a real hunger for knowledge and a desire to continually improve their skills.

 

[Julie.]

In spite of being at the older end, with absolute opportunity to give it "In my day....." cue the Yorkshire men's sketch from monty python...

I actually don't think the youth of today is any different from my youth, or of my parents, but what we all do is adapt to the environment at the time.

I remember when I decided to leave my first job, my parents were devastated, and tried for weeks to talk me out of it, because in their time, once you got a job, it was for life! Not so in my era, and less so today.

These days most jobs are very transitional, someone today doesn't expect to stay anywhere for any length of time, so learning for one job, when you are likely to move to another one is a bit of a waste.

Hence I think the need to get someone 'trained' in the shortest time possible for that specific role is the philosophy of businesses and that rubs down the way.

If you work for a high turnover/fast train company then you adopt the appropriate dedication that that encourages ie not much!

If you work for, or are exposed to a more future looking longer term style, then your style tends to match it.

Oversimplified of course, as it also comes from home and friends etc but with the modern culture being little job security, expectation of having to move from one short term job to another repeatedly, it is no wonder that people adopt the same care free attitude they are experiencing.

 

[Dave OCD]

That all makes perfect sense but surely anyone who undertakes a trade apprenticeship would want to put in some real commitment, do their best and make a good career out of it ?

 

[Julie.]

That all makes perfect sense but surely anyone who undertakes a trade apprenticeship would want to put in some real commitment, do their best and make a good career out of it ?

If they really want to, yes.

But I know so many who applied for jobs across the board, and just fell in with the one they got, in this case most won't actually be interested.

"The school careers teacher said with my qualifications, I should apply for something technical, so I applied for plumbing , electrical, and joinery jobs, I got an apprenticeship in electrical, but I am not really interested, I wanted to be a painter and decorator, but there wasn't any jobs in that area"

 

[Petej999]

So the exam and cert is pointless?

What a Stupid statement

 

[James]

The school careers teacher said with my qualifications, I should apply for something technical, so I applied for plumbing , electrical, and joinery jobs, I got an apprenticeship in electrical, but I am not really interested, I wanted to be a painter and decorator, but there wasn't any jobs in that area"

Wow, so you nearly became a plumber or a painter?

someone was giving you a push in to a field you would ultimately excel in.

could be worse, you could be on a forum trying to explain what the best type of roller is to paint a ceiling or how to paint a door without leaving drips running down it.

 

[Julie.]

Wow, so you nearly became a plumber or a painter?

someone was giving you a push in to a field you would ultimately excel in.

could be worse, you could be on a forum trying to explain what the best type of roller is to paint a ceiling or how to paint a door without leaving drips running down it.

So what do you want to know about rollers???

I was around in the "big hair" days of the '80s

 

[westward10]

Back combing with the afro comb?