Good news!

[D Skelton]

I've been invited by Mr Betts' office to attend Parliament on the 6th to sit on the panel at the next committee meeting enquiring into the effectiveness of self certification schemes!

I hope Parliamentary privileges extend to me, I am known for being rather outspoken!

 

[D Skelton]

Prepare to be given your chance to speak, then everything you've said be completely ignored.

Haha, I know deep in my heart it is a wasted trip. I just like to hope that it isn't.

 

[overskilled]

The Canadian system is where we SHOULD be headed.....Apprenticeships given to those of any age with an aptitute, not just those under 24, proper licensing and proper responsibility - i.e. the ability to lock off a dangerous installation.

Denying DIY access to electrical parts isn't EVER going to happen whether under a tory govt (complete idological anathema as its big govt) or a labour govt (nanny state accusations would be in every paper)

Unforunately Mr Skelton, I'd tread extremely careful in your wording or those more press savvy (and they are extremely well versed in how to brief the media) will paint you without difficulty in the media as an embittered lunatic determined to stop people working on their own homes, intent on turning the industry into a "closed shop" and that following your ideas will result in £200 an hour labour charges and worse....doesn't matter if its true or not, mud sticks and the newspapers will print almost anything....

I agree with Tony fully, the JIB is a talking shop and an overly self important one at that.....

Any electricians registration scheme MUST be a non profit, with any excess after administration costs to be plouged back into apprentice training and personal development of existing electricians...a copy / access to all relevant documentation - wiring regs, OSG, GNs etc should be included in the registration cost. With e-books etc....it should be entirely possible.

 

[Knobhead]

OS. Thank you.

You can see the dangers ahead with the press. Push this too hard and the trade will no longer be the underdogs. It will be money grubbing pariahs, using legislation to legitimise extortion.

We all call BG, do you want to be tarred the same.

 

[Engineer54]

The Canadian system is where we SHOULD be headed.....Apprenticeships given to those of any age with an aptitute, not just those under 24, proper licensing and proper responsibility - i.e. the ability to lock off a dangerous installation.

Denying DIY access to electrical parts isn't EVER going to happen whether under a tory govt (complete idological anathema as its big govt) or a labour govt (nanny state accusations would be in every paper)

Unforunately Mr Skelton, I'd tread extremely careful in your wording or those more press savvy (and they are extremely well versed in how to brief the media) will paint you without difficulty in the media as an embittered lunatic determined to stop people working on their own homes, intent on turning the industry into a "closed shop" and that following your ideas will result in £200 an hour labour charges and worse....doesn't matter if its true or not, mud sticks and the newspapers will print almost anything....

I agree with Tony fully, the JIB is a talking shop and an overly self important one at that.....

Any electricians registration scheme MUST be a non profit, with any excess after administration costs to be plouged back into apprentice training and personal development of existing electricians...a copy / access to all relevant documentation - wiring regs, OSG, GNs etc should be included in the registration cost. With e-books etc....it should be entirely possible.

What we NEED is a functioning National Licensing scheme not a bloody Electricians social club. An official body to set the required standards and to oversee that those standards are maitainted within the industry, the rest is just pure garnish!!

With a licensing system in place, requiring a much higher minimum entry standard, how many mature students do you think will be interested?? The ONLY reason these people came into this industry is because you and the Scams made it sooo bloody easy for them to do so, with just a 17th regs qualification. Evertime one of these guy's has been put on the spot on the forum, the same old story is heard.... I can't afford to be a mature apprentice i have a mortgage and a wife and kids to support. Well my answer to that gem is, if you can't or won't do the time, then go find a different trade, preferably one that can't kill/maim him or others!!

As for expecting a copy of BS7671 and it's OSG's as part of registration costs, your living in cloud cuckoo land. Online versions are indeed possible, but at what cost, and why is it necessary?? Every Electrician should be in posession of BS7671 surely along with at lest 2 of the OSG's...

As for your take on the JIB/SJIB, yes they have their problems, but from what i've read, and know from it's early days, without them the contracting electrical industry would have been quite literary up s**t creek without a paddle many years ago. It is also, still the only organisation that set's anywhere near meaningful minimum standards for electricians...

Drop all the Social Club rubbish and stick to the formation of a functional National Licensing scheme for electricians...

 

[UNG]

I hope you dont slate us Domestic Installers off too much, some of us work to the regs and try our hardest to do a good, safe job.

Any comments made by those attending criticising the current training and assessment schemes will indirectly be as you say slating the DI's standing in the industry as that is what is being discussed

The system that has trained you and assessed you is what is being questioned IMO, the knock on effect of any changes that raise the bar will ultimately affect you and a lot of others as I don't see any reason to grant any automatic grandfather rights to those whose basic qualifications do not meet any new requirements.


Any attempt to raise the qualification level will no doubt cause a furore from some if it were to happen but the quick training companies coupled with the scams whose acceptance criteria falls well below what could be considered as acceptable has created a mis-sold dream with the result potentially leaving a lot of people left to pick up the pieces should the bar be raised, it has already been mentioned that a grace period would be needed to allow those affected to improve their qualifications to meet any changes but this then creates an issue of what is a reasonable time with the .

This whole thing could run for years without decision and then there will no doubt be various legal challenges from those affected by any changes, then again nothing may change as we get nearer and nearer to the abyss

 

[Engineer54]

Any attempt to raise the qualification level will no doubt cause a furore from some if it were to happen but the quick training companies coupled with the scams whose acceptance criteria falls well below what could be considered as acceptable has created a mis-sold dream with the result potentially leaving a lot of people left to pick up the pieces should the bar be raised.

You never know, they may make these training and scam providers compensate those that were ''miss sold'' useless but very expensive services. In a similar way they have made the banks compensate it's customers where services have been miss sold to them!!

... But i wouldn't be holding my breath!! lol|!!

 

[UNG]

You never know, they may make these training and scam providers compensate those that were ''miss sold'' useless but very expensive services. In a similar way they have made the banks compensate it's customers where services have been miss sold to them!!

... But i wouldn't be holding my breath!! lol|!!

The problem is so many of these quick training companies have gone bust and / or reappeared as another company so compensation may be another dream that won't come true

 

[Engineer54]

The problem is so many of these quick training companies have gone bust and / or reappeared as another company so compensation may be another dream that won't come true

My post was more tongue in cheek than anything else. So very much another dream that will remain just a dream!! lol!!

 

[overskilled]

The fly in the ointment for Comrade Eng's plan is the lack of consideration for those who have the knowledge base to work as electricians but do not have the "apprenticeship", i.e. electronic engineering grads and a few others....the technical aspects most of them can grasp quite easily, its the physical mechanics that they lack knowledge on....and there is a vast difference between a 16 yr old straight out of school with 4 Fs and a university grad in terms of learning ability.....

Just because something has "always been done this way" doesn't mean it always has to be....

Also if mature apprenticeships work in Canada...then why not here? Saying it wouldn't work is just a damned excuse to cover what appears to be a prejudice and an unwillingness to consider options other than "tradition".....

 

[D Skelton]

I feel it is only fair to say now that I have had my meeting with the MD of Trade Skills 4U Mr Carl Bennett. We actually discussed some issues at great length and believe it or not we had more to agree on that we had to disagree on.

I am in no position to speak for him but during our discussion it was made clear to me that roughly 80% of their revenue came from teaching the 2357, 2365, 2382 update and PV courses. A further 20% was made up of what he called a 'package' marketed towards the fast track trainee. He was the first to say that he disagreed with the current way that the industry is functioning and that he is only facilitating a training option that has been allowed by the government.

He was clear that he did want to see the bar of competence raised, afterall, he expressed that A. He is a businessman and any raising of the minimum competence requirements ultimately means more revenue for him through longer courses, and B. He is in full agreement that five weeks training is nowhere near long enough to class someone as competent. He also expressed that he would like to see the ban of electrical equipment to the general public in sheds and wholesalers. His concern being that if you raise the bar of competence without any other restrictions being in place, you run the risk of far more people ducking under that bar than climbiing up to meet it. He expressed that in an ideal world the minimum level of qualification would be an NVQ3 or equivalent, but that it is never going to happen. For this reason he believes that certain compromises will have to be made.

We discussed a blog article in which he was talking about a meeting with Clive Betts and his concerns about the unintended consequences of raising the levels of competence and how I was rather rude about him in a thread on this forum where I accused him of being an ar$e licker and of living on a different planet. Fair play to the bloke, he took it on the chin and said something along the lines of "If you want your voice heard you've got to shout the loudest". I think we came to the conclusion that the blog may not have been written as well as it could have been and that I had misinterpreted some of it's meaning. Six of one and half a dozen....

His main point being that we have to be aware of the unintended consequences of raising the bar of competence without at the same time denying access to electrical equipment.

What we did disagree on is our feelings towards the inclusive nature of current qualifications across the board. He believes that everyone has the right to train, I believe that they don't. As I understood it, he believes that even if you have no grasp whatsoever of basic maths you should still be able to be accepted onto an electrical qualification where as I don't.

A compromise that we talked about at length was the introduction of a new qualification that focused primarily on domestic design, installation and inspection and testing. It would include many units from within the 2357 and would give learners a good basic understanding of design concepts, a much deeper understanding of the regs and much more understanding of inspection and testing. The course would also include the fundamental science and principles of electricity and how it works. The anticipated time scale for completion of such a course would be around 12 full time weeks instead of five (for your information the 2365 is currently 24 full time weeks). The new domestic course would run on day release for roughly a year and a half.

We then discussed the application of a licensing scheme (which he is also in favour of) but with the separation of 'electrician' and 'domestic installer' being backed by statute. Electrician grade being soley for those who have completed an apprenticeship and NVQ3 and Domestic Installer being for those who have completed the new 12 week course as well as having completed a similar form of vocational on site assessment to the NVQ only domestic orientated. The difference being that those who hold the domestic installer licence are restricted by law to single phase domestic dwellings only! The term electrician could also not be used by a domestic installer, using the term would be subject to false advertising laws.

The assessments by whichever body, private or governement, as to which category you fit into (electrician or DI) would be regulated, strict and the prices controlled for affordability. The price would be the same regardless of which type of licence you hold as opposed to the NICs current AC/DI scam arrangement.

I must point out that even though we discussed compromises, I am still of the view that the NVQ3 should be the minimum level of qualification end of! He is of the view that the NVQ3 should be the minimum level of qualification in an ideal world.

Some interesting points and thoughts raised though regardless of which camp you sit on!

 

[overskilled]

DS: I'm of the opinion that anyone with the aptitude should be allowed to do the training and that those best suited should be given priority places on training courses. Also I'd like to see a minimum qualification level for being taken on as an apprentice, though the cowboys in the industry would shriek as it would stop them taking on their usual pile of "yes boss, sure boss, I'll not bother with RCDs, bonding etc, no problem looking the other way" types.....
If employers are worried about the wage costs for low level trainees, then perhaps a better idea would be to put more of the basic practical stuff into a college based environment (there's somewhere funding could go....) to get them up to speed and have trainees more ready to "hit the ground running"....

 

[Engineer54]

The fly in the ointment for Comrade Eng's plan is the lack of consideration for those who have the knowledge base to work as electricians but do not have the "apprenticeship", i.e. electronic engineering grads and a few others....the technical aspects most of them can grasp quite easily, its the physical mechanics that they lack knowledge on....and there is a vast difference between a 16 yr old straight out of school with 4 Fs and a university grad in terms of learning ability.....

Just because something has "always been done this way" doesn't mean it always has to be....

Also if mature apprenticeships work in Canada...then why not here? Saying it wouldn't work is just a damned excuse to cover what appears to be a prejudice and an unwillingness to consider options other than "tradition".....

Why are you calling me ''Comade'' i'm about as far away from being a communist as you could possibly imagine!!

Look i'm only talking about and concentrating on the licensing aspect, not on Canada's policy on mature Apprenticeships, or if electronic grads and the like, can grasp this that and the other over others!! I'm, not saying mature apprenticeships won't/can't work in the UK, that depends on government intentions and finance polices!!
What i'm saying is, If anyone attains the required entry level into the licensing register all well and good, but don't start lowering standards and hacking around the qualifications that are already in place.

As for the always done this way, ...i quite agree, but then when a method has proven itself over decades, that it works and works exceptionally well, then changing for change sake is pretty stupid and self defeating. No objection to any system that works equally as well as the tried and tested methods...

What i don't want to see, is a watering down of what an electrician should actually be, and that's what you seem to be implying going from your previous posts on the thread...

 

[overskilled]

Comrade was a.tongue in cheek reference to working in China...just yanking your chain tbh.
Also progress is gained through discussion, part of the problem for apprentices currently is if their employer goes belly up, getting taken on elsewhere can be difficult. Also there's the returnees those who have been away from the industry for years yet there's no requirement currently for them to do any refresher training...

 

[Engineer54]

Comrade was a.tongue in cheek reference to working in China...QUOTE]

If the truth be known, China today, is about as far away from it's communist doctrines as you can possibly get!! lol!! More attuned to a Capitalist economy with more personal millionaires than virtually every other country... lol!!

 

[Phoenix]

I think the point that is being missed here is that IF the Government wanted to ramp up qualification and safety levels then WHY has so much work been taken OUT of the notifiable category? If they were interested in skill levels then these works should have been INCREASED in number, or ensure that items such as CU's, showers etc. can only be purchased by card-carrying members of official bodies.

The Government is driven by money and organisations that make it; such measures as I have mentioned above would be fiercely opposed by manufacturers and retailers and therefore it will never happen. This industry is no different to any other; Car Maintenance, Gas Installations, Plumbing, Window fitting, Driving Instruction, you name it. They all have qualification levels and they all contain cowboys.