Help needed to review quality of distributer box installation

[Isaac k]

Hi everyone,

I just had my distributer box upgraded to an RCD box, and I was wondering if anyone could advise me on the quality of the work done here. I know that changing these boxes is a nightmare to do, and truth be told our wiring was a mess before, but for the price we payed I don't believe there should be electrical tape and exposed wires coming out of the box. Also you can see the housing for the old night electricity box which they have decided to leave and they also chose not to cover the channel with all the exposed wires. I'm just curious to see what this forum's take is on this work, and if it was worth the £700 I payed for it.

Thanks!

(This is my first post, so if I am in the wrong category I apologise)

 

[Octopus]

2nd part

View attachment 45276

The paragraph entitled "Current Weaknesses" makes an interesting read .........

And Scottish home owners suffer the same as in England - i.e. a distinct lack of awareness of the schemes, regs etc?

So in Scotland anybody can call themselves a spark without any qualifications? That's how I read it!

Sounds like lots of our European friends down here ........

 

[JK-Electrical]

The paragraph entitled "Current Weaknesses" makes an interesting read .........

And Scottish home owners suffer the same as in England - i.e. a distinct lack of awareness of the schemes, regs etc?

So in Scotland anybody can call themselves a spark without any qualifications? That's how I read it!

Sounds like lots of our European friends down here ........

You are reading correctly, Murdoch. In Scotland, anyone can represent themselves as an electrician and then go do sub-standard electrical installation work in people's homes. MyBuilder and Rated People are full of wetpants, kitchen-fitters, bathroom-fitters, builders and handymen who all suffer from the delusion that they are competent electricians.

 

[Octopus]

You are reading correctly, Murdoch. In Scotland, anyone can represent themselves as an electrician and then go do sub-standard electrical installation work in people's homes. MyBuilder and Rated People are full of wetpants, kitchen-fitters, bathroom-fitters, builders and handymen who all suffer from the delusion that they are competent electricians.

The last sentence of the Select Document in post #142 - was that written by the SNP?

As far as I'm aware, building regs in Scotland come under the responsibility of the Devolved Government ................ so surely they have control over this ....................... or is it the usual of if in doubt blame Westminster , so to deflect any eyes away from us?

 

[JK-Electrical]

The last sentence of the Select Document in post #142 - was that written by the SNP?

As far as I'm aware, building regs in Scotland come under the responsibility of the Devolved Government ................ so surely they have control over this ....................... or is it the usual of if in doubt blame Westminster , so to deflect any eyes away from us?

You are correct ..... the Scottish Government has responsibility for building regulations in Scotland, and as far as electrical installation work is concerned, the regulations are somewhat lax. For instance, a building warrant would be required if an additional socket was to be installed in a tenement building. But a warrant is not required for a consumer unit changeover. This is a somewhat bizarre arrangement to say the least. More bizarre still, in a tenement building, a building warrant is required for the installation of a mains-operated smoke alarm, but not for the installation of a shower. A building warrant is required for rewiring a flat located within a tenement building, but not for a house unless it consists of more than two storeys. You couldn't make this up.

The sentence that you're referring to is from a report produced almost two years ago by SELECT. Electrician As A Profession - The Case For Regulation. I've uploaded the document as a PDF file. What they're getting at here is since it was Westminster who introduced the Part P legislation that in turn has led to creation of Electrical Trainee 'domestic installer' courses, they are ultimately to blame for the downskilling of the trade, at least in the domestic sector anyway. Short course participants who 'qualify' as 'electricians' in England and Wales are then given grade cards which they can use in Scotland to purport themselves as electricians. I know of several such types who are based in Scotland, but who did a short-course in England so to acquire the necessary documentation that will allow them to pass themselves off as 'qualified'. I know for a fact that this practice is happening up here.

What the SELECT report does not mention, however, is that the Scottish Government are as equally culpable for the poor state of the electrical contracting industry in Scotland, for under the present system that THEY themselves designed and implemented, anyone can call themselves an 'electrician' and trade accordingly. And many do. I've been in the trade since 1976, and have noticed a sharp increase over the last decade or so in the number of rogue installations that I come across. Indeed, a few weeks ago, EVERY single job that I attended in the course of one working week had serious defects, all of which were caused by non-skilled personnel. This has got to stop. To my mind, the question is when someone is killed rather than if.

The UK and Scottish Governments must shoulder the lion's share of blame for the sorry state of our industry as they are the ones who are responsible for legislation. The NICEIC and the training centres are also to blame, for it is they who have been churning-out 'boil-in-the-bag' 'electricians' conveyor-belt style. Kerching, kerching, kerching.

 

[Octopus]

Hum ........... we have all sorts of people, UK and European doing sparking around here ................ Governments won't change this ......... so I can't see how Holyrood are going to change anything north of the Border

Obviously Select will keep raising this so as to keep themselves busy ...

 

[JK-Electrical]

Hum ........... we have all sorts of people, UK and European doing sparking around here ................ Governments won't change this ......... so I can't see how Holyrood are going to change anything north of the Border

Obviously Select will keep raising this so as to keep themselves busy ...

Holyrood has the power to act, but chooses not to. The party who controls the house seemingly has bigger fish to fry and more important issues to deal with other than dangerous electrical work being carried-out in people's homes by unskilled personnel.

Until such times as this mindset changes, the industry north of the border will continue to suffer. I know that SELECT have just about run out of patience with the Scottish Government regarding this issue and the gloves will be coming off if progress is not made and soon. Bring it on, I say.

 

[Deuce]

But a warrant is not required for a consumer unit changeover. This is a somewhat bizarre arrangement to say the least. More bizarre still, in a tenement building, a building warrant is required for the installation of a mains-operated smoke alarm, but not for the installation of a shower.

In England there are obviously also problems with enforcing the rules too... But it seems up in Scotland-land, it's actively back to front!!

Can't change a socket but can change a CU? The CU actually supplies and protects the circuit, it should be the main focus of regulation and control surely?

And I can't accept that people are not allowed to fit their own smoke alarm (which could save a life) but are allowed to fit their own electric shower (which could end a life).

I understand the reasons that government don't want to get overly involved in this can of worms. But how did it end up so back to front in the first place? At what point/how did someone get round to outlawing a bloke swapping out a faulty socket, without considering the folk that apparently feel a CU swap is a DIY job? And what is the logic in allowing someone to swap a high current wet environment shower but actively blocks a bloke that thinks "hmm... I'd feel happier if we had a smoke detector in the hallway leading to the kids bedrooms".

I'm not saying safety devices are best fitted by amateurs... But surely stop them working in the bathroom before worrying about anything else!?

 

[JK-Electrical]

In England there are obviously also problems with enforcing the rules too... But it seems up in Scotland-land, it's actively back to front!!

Can't change a socket but can change a CU? The CU actually supplies and protects the circuit, it should be the main focus of regulation and control surely?

And I can't accept that people are not allowed to fit their own smoke alarm (which could save a life) but are allowed to fit their own electric shower (which could end a life).

I understand the reasons that government don't want to get overly involved in this can of worms. But how did it end up so back to front in the first place? At what point/how did someone get round to outlawing a bloke swapping out a faulty socket, without considering the folk that apparently feel a CU swap is a DIY job? And what is the logic in allowing someone to swap a high current wet environment shower but actively blocks a bloke that thinks "hmm... I'd feel happier if we had a smoke detector in the hallway leading to the kids bedrooms".

I'm not saying safety devices are best fitted by amateurs... But surely stop them working in the bathroom before worrying about anything else!?

You're asking the same set of questions that a lot of puzzled Scottish electricians have been asking for years!

 

[Deuce]

You're asking the same set of questions that a lot of puzzled Scottish electricians have been asking for years!

Have you ever looked at the stats of Scottish vs English electrical fires/deaths/shocks etc? I wonder if there is a difference? If you ever wanted to play your part in affecting change, that would be a good place to start. Let's face it, your boys north of the border won't like to hear that you're statistically more likely to be fried than 'The English'.

If nothing else, it would be interesting to see the side by side stats that are the result of the differences in regulation.

 

[JK-Electrical]

Have you ever looked at the stats of Scottish vs English electrical fires/deaths/shocks etc? I wonder if there is a difference? If you ever wanted to play your part in affecting change, that would be a good place to start. Let's face it, your boys north of the border won't like to hear that you're statistically more likely to be fried than 'The English'.

If nothing else, it would be interesting to see the side by side stats that are the result of the differences in regulation.

According to Electrical Safety First, 54.4% of fires in England during 2015/16 were caused by electricity. No fatalities though. Meanwhile up here in Scotland, 75% of fires during 2016 were caused by electricity. This resulted in nine deaths.

So you are indeed much more likely to be barbecued by an electrical fire in Scotland than you are south of the border. This comes as no surprise at all to me given the alarming number of seriously-defective installations that I've come across. Indeed, my only surprise is that the number of deaths are relatively low. But it's still nine too many.

 

[Deuce]

According to Electrical Safety First, 54.4% of fires in England during 2015/16 were caused by electricity. No fatalities though. Meanwhile up here in Scotland, 75% of fires during 2016 were caused by electricity. This resulted in nine deaths.

So you are indeed much more likely to be barbecued by an electrical fire in Scotland than you are south of the border. This comes as no surprise at all to me given the alarming number of seriously-defective installations that I've come across. Indeed, my only surprise is that the number of deaths are relatively low. But it's still nine too many.

On the flip side, statistically it's fascinating that I would guess 100's of millions is spent in the name of electrical safety (one way or the other) yet even though over half the fires in England were down to electrical, no one died. I suspect that in Scotland the fire/death ratio is different because allowing anyone to do the work, provides a low cost but legal solution to those living in outdated cheap accommodation that is generally poor on fire safety - even before some fool comes and hooks up a dodgy CU.

If you want to really push this issue, I think the charge should be led with the stats. In one year 9 scots die, for the same cause the english go two years with zero deaths. Go back another year or two when there was a death in England - and you could have a statistic that you're 10x more likely to die in Scotland for the same cause. That's how the politicians defend their actions when they have a success... Throw it back at them!

Personally if 75% of fires in a single year are down to electrical, then it's basic common sense. You would probably get less awful statistics if you allowed unlicensed drivers on the road and then looked at the causes of accidents. The difference being that any driver will avoid the accident for their own preservation, but an idiot will create a danger in a customers home and not even realise why it is dangerous.

 

[JK-Electrical]

I'm quoting from an article written in 2016 by Phil Watts of Ascot College of Electrical Studies titled, House Fires Caused By Fuse-boards, The Plot Thickens:

"Figures obtained from London Fire Brigade show 253 recorded fires where a consumer unit was identified as the source of ignition in the year 2013/2014. How does that compare with eight years earlier in 2005/2006 when the lower standards of Part P were first introduced? Well, see for yourself."

2005/2006 – 27
2006/2007 – 28
2007/2008 – 33
2008/2009 – 21
2009/2010 – 54
2010/2011 - 73
2011/2012 - 71
2012/2013 - 220
2013/2014 - 253

This is scary reading indeed as the statistics are just for London! I wonder what the statistics for all of the UK for the same period are.

 

[Deuce]

I'm quoting from an article written in 2016 by Phil Watts of Ascot College of Electrical Studies titled, House Fires Caused By Fuse-boards, The Plot Thickens:

"Figures obtained from London Fire Brigade show 253 recorded fires where a consumer unit was identified as the source of ignition in the year 2013/2014. How does that compare with eight years earlier in 2005/2006 when the lower standards of Part P were first introduced? Well, see for yourself."

2005/2006 – 27
2006/2007 – 28
2007/2008 – 33
2008/2009 – 21
2009/2010 – 54
2010/2011 - 73
2011/2012 - 71
2012/2013 - 220
2013/2014 - 253

This is scary reading indeed as the statistics are just for London! I wonder what the statistics for all of the UK for the same period are.

S**t! That's damn near a ten fold increase!

And coupled with the fact that many of those CU swaps would have bought improved safety devices into the installation too.. the increase is fires becomes even more staggering.

Thing is though, I think whilst part P is not the ideal solution for here or in Scotland - it would at least improve the situation you have. At very least the spark (word used loosely..) would know to test and how to test - even though some still won't bother.

The crazy thing is that Scotland vs England... Part P is a bit of a joke here, and your government could take advantage of that knowledge to leapfrog us with a better system, one that would improve safety at home and also score an important political point by proving the new legislation out-performed that mandated by Westminster.

 

[Deuce]

I do also wonder if the huge jump between 11/12 and 12/13 was due to the fire brigade somehow more accurately determining cause. It's odd that in one year there should be such a huge jump.

 

[JK-Electrical]

I do also wonder if the huge jump between 11/12 and 12/13 was due to the fire brigade somehow more accurately determining cause. It's odd that in one year there should be such a huge jump.

I think there is a more plausible explanation. I quote from the SELECT report, Electrician As A Profession - The Case For Regulation (Appendix C, page 51):

"The arrival of the “Part P” through the new Building Regulations for the Domestic Sector in 2005 opened the flood gates for around 100,000 poorly qualified "Domestic Installers" whose ultra short training programmes (one to three weeks typically) leaves them a world away from the capability of fully qualified Electrician who have learned their trade over four to five years."

It is no coincidence that a rise in consumer unit fires corresponds with the arrival into our industry of 'Domestic Installers'.