Hmmm, mind where you walk.....

[hotXbun]

I'm working in a small housing estate circa 1960 (ish). All the houses are wired with no earth to the lighting circuits. Many of the houses have metal light fittings. Many have boarded lofts. Many have CU's not up to date. .... ok ..... so:

Any electrical work is being carried out as part of some other improvement. In this case, I'm putting in a new bathroom. Up in the part boarded loft, the existing 6mm T&E supply has been fed to a junction box and out comes 2- 2.5 T&E ( one to whirlpool bath, other to double SSO in bedroom ) and the 6mm T&E then continues on to the second bathroom shower... I might add that the second bathroom shower has been fitted by son and the pull cord operating that shower had lost it's pull cord and customer has asked me to replace the cord (which I have done) so she can use second bathroom .... the existing lighting is to 3 dodgy downlights in the bathroom (I'm working on) - one is directly above the shower head - I would judge no more than 200mm away! Together with the downlights, there are 3 !! pull cord switches - one redundant, one to centre light and other controlling 2 more lights. Cables wired between various fittings is 1.0mm T&E with earth wire charmingly cut back and all connections via fully exposed bits of terminal strip .... am beginning to feel it looks like one of my old jobs .... actually, this almost certainly what I uncover in virtually all my jobs for many a year

So, assuming you still reading this, would you agree with my reasoning:

1. I can advise customer on state of work required and ask if she would like an estimate for work necessary to bring standard up to 17th Edition. She doesn't have to accept.
2. I can leave as is and all is well, but.... I am involved ....
3. So, obviously I can put in new lights and wire up lights and presumably I could grab an earth from a locally placed socket outlet in the loft?
4. Presumably I cover my backside by noting deviations from regs on test certificate but where does this leave customer should she decide to leave as is?
5. Lastly, if I re-cord the pull cord to the pull cord switch controlling the shower, do I have to then test it out?

Thanks,

Stewart

 

[Mac]

Pull the main fuse,put it in your pocket and put a condemned sign on the CU

 

[SirKit Breaker]

Tell her it needs a rewire as the cost of bringing it up to a safe standard (17th edition or otherwise) will be more time consuming and expensive. If she doesnt take then do one.

It p***es me off the times i get called to quote for jobs like cellar/loft conversions, extensions etc which they are willing to pay decent 5 figure sums for but they dont care about the basic`s.

Rant over................Howard

 

[Tester Steve]

Mac's right, inform the ocupier in writing and get out fast. Oh.... and don't touch anything!!

 

[Romans99]

yeah, dont have anything to do with that.

Im sure they will find some Cowboy to do whatever they want but dont put your name on it

 

[hotXbun]

Thanks but pulling the fuse and having a rant isn't answering my question.

I appreciate the 'electricians' point of view but I'm looking at it from a builders perspective and furthermore, I'm trying to find out where my client stands with regard to the regs ... so, please, be a bit more helpful as is is not a 'one off' example of what I come across.

Also, you might like to know that this is a house that has had it's CU recently described in another thread where it had supposedly been brought up to the 17th edition! Now, let us be honest, how many of you when asked to supply and fit a new CU go to the bother of checking out the installation in general? And how can you know without quizzing the customer as to what has been done?

Sorry, but I'm not walking away .... so can I have some positive responses as to what I should do please as it would help both of us to understand the practical difficulties associated with the domestic market

Oh, and please have a bit of respect for my customer! She, like most of our customers is not expected to understand all the ins-and-outs. Furthermore, it is only as a consequence of other works that she is being made aware of the inadequacies of her existing installation! Not all customers think in blinkered fashion ... maybe there is a case for making the population in general more aware that there is such a beast as the latest regulations......

Ta

 

[Spudnik]

If you are modifying any circuit then any work you do must comply with the 17th, even fitting the lights as all the work in the bathroom will be notifiable and will have your name on the cert.

If she is not willing to pay to have it sorted then leave the electrical install alone and do the rest of the bathroom, and she can instruct someone else to do it.

 

[paulrayner]

Also, you might like to know that this is a house that has had it's CU recently described in another thread where it had supposedly been brought up to the 17th edition! Now, let us be honest, how many of you when asked to supply and fit a new CU go to the bother of checking out the installation in general? And how can you know without quizzing the customer as to what has been done?


Ta [/QUOTE]

I allways go to the bother of checking the installation before i commence any work only a fool dosen't bother. It's my name on the cert & my neck on the block if it go's t*ts up it's just not worth it. I give them a price to do the job right if they dont like it then they can get somebody else to do the work. I will and have walked away from prospective jobs cos they want it doin there way, dont get me wrong there are different options with many job situations but at the end of the day it needs to be safe , it needs to comply with latest regs and when I put my head on the pillow I like to go to sleep.

 

[steamboatwilly]

Tricky one.....and, actually, I wouldn't walk away either. We have a duty to formally inform the client of the faults and potential dangers.

Itemise each of the potential faults (Visual Condition Cert?) and ensure she is aware of the potential dangers. If you're stopped from fixing all of the problems then all you can do is bring the work that you do up to scratch and advise of any deviations.

If you add the pull cord you're not modifying the circuit but you are enabling the use of an appliance which you're aware might be potentially dangerous. I wouldn't.....if they've lived without it for a while they can live a ittle longer until it's checked? It sends a more positive/supportive message to her than simply pulling and pocketing the main fuse.

I have seen installations like this and I usually send a letter stating the problems. Most sensible people will have work done which removes the danger of shock or fire.

 

[pushrod]

1. So, obviously I can put in new lights and wire up lights and presumably I could grab an earth from a locally placed socket outlet in the loft?

fairly certain this is not allowed.

 

[hotXbun]

I think the problem is one of access. It is obvious that running a bit of T&E is the easy bit. Any competent person can work out that stripping out existing cables etc and making the complete system up to date is not exactly difficult....

What IS difficult is working out how to do all this without making too much mess. How do you persuade customer that removing furniture and taking up fitted carpets or laminate flooring or ceramic floor tiles or amtico tiles is now necessary to meet the new regs otherwise one will walk away OR you will do some of the work and cover your arse with sticky labels (assuming one can be bothered). If there was nice conduit in place (as you can get in older properties) then it might be possible to use the conduit to run a single earth, but this is becoming more unlikely as time goes on. So, we have boarded lofts and whole areas of limited access and I'm supposed to run an earth ... I am beginning to think that the whole concept of the 'new' regulations is just a marketing exercise!

Oh yes, I forgot! All I need is explain to customer why they cannot have that metallic light fitting or nice shiny switchplate and all is peace .......... except they give you that look that says "I want it!" so you explain that you will only fit it but a sticky label will be stuck on the surface telling all and sundry that said fitting is not earthed and you will of course supply customer with a fresh tested safe pair of plastic gloves (gloves tested to protection zone 1 - person standing in bath full of water whilst holding onto live supply - max 400v) .... and you advise customer not to actually turn it on

Actually, having just finished bowl of crunchy nuts ... they must be harmful to brain ..... how about all light fittings now have a neon connected between neutral and body of light so that if fault develops, neon lights up and triggers RCD ....... sheer brilliance

 

[Romans99]

I'm all for safety and doing things properly but this is the most over regulated industry in the most over regulated country on earth.

 

[shagg]

I'm all for safety and doing things properly but this is the most over regulated industry in the most over regulated country on earth.

As true as that is, Rules are rules and can't be broken for convience, or profit for that matter.

Why can't you just slit the tails, fit a small c/u for the bathroom and pull new circuits in for the bathroom only. I know it's a ball ache but that's what being I sparkys all about, Doing a SAFE and professional job. And if these standard can't be met, in my view i don't think the work should be undertaken regardless of what the customer what's or knows.

 

[pushrod]

There are quite a few websites that feature large numbers of class 2 light fittings which would be safe - example - maybe you could encourage the owners to choose some.

 

[hotXbun]

As true as that is, Rules are rules and can't be broken for convience, or profit for that matter.

Why can't you just slit the tails, fit a small c/u for the bathroom and pull new circuits in for the bathroom only. I know it's a ball ache but that's what being I sparkys all about, Doing a SAFE and professional job. And if these standard can't be met, in my view i don't think the work should be undertaken regardless of what the customer what's or knows.

When I first read that I must admit I thought it a bit extreme but then I went away and thought about it and it is almost exactly what I do when I fit a new kitchen! Well, I do ensure that lighting and power are all on new circuits to CU (unless everything can be checked out as ok already...)

So maybe I'll have another look and see what I can work out. I am fast deciding that I will work out a cost of rewiring the lighting for the whole house and try to persuade client that it be less painless than leaving till later.

Meanwhile, maybe the idea of having a 30mA supply running round the house as a loop with lighting and power RCBO's controlling each defined section doesn't sound too far off. Rather makes the existing concept of an isolated CU as a bit old fashioned

There are quite a few websites that feature large numbers of class 2 light fittings which would be safe - example - maybe you could encourage the owners to choose some.

Thanks for that example .... I googled but couldn't find other class 2 suppliers - any further links?