Hi guys whats your take of how many EICRs can be done properly in a day average of 5 to 8 circuits ranging from 1 bed flats to 3 bed houses?? This would also include travel and also doing any repairs whilst there?
- Thread starter magnoliafan89
- Start date
There's cowboys in the Gassafe scheme, my nephew recently bought a house that looked good on the surface to him and his girlfriend but from the estate agents pictures I worked out it needed a rewire. So after completion me and a mate of mine rock up to start the rewire after a bad start due to the number of other problems we find they decide to gut the kitchen, they wanted some of the pipework from the upstairs radiators to the boiler and the hot and cold water pipes moving so we got roped into that only to find that the plumber who fitted the combi boiler had plumbed the hot and cold to the boiler the wrong way round my mate suggested doing a drop test on the gas and yes the plumber had manged to sign off a gas tightness test and not notice that the fire in the lounge was faulty
Going back a few years my M-I-L had a gas fire serviced after the first visit my S-I-L smelt gas when she called round, after 2 more visits to fix it and still getting a smell of gas finaly the fourth guy fixed it properly after identifying there was an o ring missing so four different gassafe engineers and only one found the problem and the first one left site having created the leak
Gassafe for me is another one of those organisations that does not have a lot of credibility
D
Dustydazzler
65£ you got ripped off
my local plumber is offering currently offering them for 25£ a pop
and a boiler service for 40£
Have any of you been in touch with your scheme provider to ask for guidance on how long an EICR should take?
Shouldn’t imagine they care....they don’t make any money out of it....?
D
davesparks
Why would anyone do that? It's none of their business how long an EICR takes, their concern is only, supposedly, the quality of the EICR.
Any scheme provider has a duty of care for any documents provided in their name, therefor they should provide guidance for the preparation of said documents and the time period necessary to carry out that preparation in a correct/meaningful manner, each one of you should be badgering your scheme provider for that information, and if any of you are members of unite, badger them as well, that's if you really do want something done about the five a day brigade.
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davesparks
How are they supposed to provide guidance for the time necessary for preparing the documents?
They'd have to try to establish the time it takes for each possible size/type of installation, plus then for each software package plus hand writing certificates.
Add to this the fact that there is not a fixed format for the report, there is a model form in BS7671 but that is only a model and many of us use our own forms based on it.
Also the documents aren't provided in their names, the document is in the name of the person competing the report, the schemes allow their members to print their logos on the reports.
Interesting view point, but not really providing a solution to the problem of the five a day brigade, you should be looking for ways to get the EICR filled out and completed in a workmanlike manner, not finding excuses for them not to do anything about it, lots of other professions have done exactly that.
It's not the time to prepare the documents that is at issue, it's the time taken to get the information filled out on those documents.
It's not the time to prepare the documents that is at issue, it's the time taken to get the information filled out on those documents.
D
davesparks
It is not the time taken to get information,fill out documents or anything that is at issue.
The issue is a lack of understanding of what is required and the consequences, it is an issue of putting money before safeguarding human lives.
Any attempt to standardise or fix the amount of time an EICR takes will not solve the problem, it may allow more of them to be completed properly but it will also prevent some being competed properly as they would take longer than the standardised time.
There is no solution to the "5-a-day brigade" as there is nobody policing the quality of EICRs nor are there harsh penalties for improper completion. Added to that, is the fact that they are largely subjective and rely on the 'opinion' of the tester and/or his interest, diligence or observational skills.
We need 12 month bans for improper issuance of EICRs... and re-training before you're allowed back to them !
We need 12 month bans for improper issuance of EICRs... and re-training before you're allowed back to them !
D
davesparks
Yes there is an element of opinion, but not as much as you make it seem. The vast majority of faults are pretty easy to code consistently as long as the people doing the report fully understand the requirements.
Bans and retraining won't work, there are plenty of training providers giving out incorrect information, and the companies who craeate these '5 a day' jobs will continue regardless.
I can't understand why doing EICR's is heading in the same direction as appliance testing with a "how many can you do in a day" competition to some guy's although some of the employers are equally as bad forcing employees to hit the 3, 4 or more EICR's a day targets or face being fired
Do the guys bragging about the numbers they can do in a day take a chance on not missing something dangerous when they put their signature on the report or if it's a 17th+ edition CU with RCD's on everything does it significantly reduce the risk for them of someone dying or being seriously injured and therefore not having an appearance in court with the possibility of a room in one of Her Majesties hotels for a time
I always remember one of the first or possibly the first PIR's I did after finishing my apprenticeship it was on a house that had been extended and the builder needed an electrical cert for the council as it was a grant job, when I got there the women who answered the door was in the advanced stages of pregnancy and a bit stressed, after an hour of testing and checking the installation everything looked good then it started going downhill rapidly when I opened up a 2 way light switch in the garage that was going to be the last accessory that I checked and found the T&E had the earth used as one of the strappers after that the extension became a 100% inspection with a number of other non compliances found and a clearly unsatisfactory report. When I got back to the office my boss asked why the PIR had taken twice as long as it normally took as it had taken nearly 3 hours so I told him all the problems I had found and he agreed I was right with what I did.
The following morning I was in the office getting my job sheets for the day and the phone rang the boss answered and it was the irate husband from the house I was at the previous day wanting my details as he wanted me in court as his nearly 8 months pregnant wife had been admitted to hospital with a suspected miscarriage and it was my fault and he also wanted another electrician to go out and give them a satisfactory report as the builder had assured him there was nothing wrong with his electrical work my boss told him in no uncertain terms that it was not going to happen and he backed his electricians opinion and sending another one out would result in the same findings unless the builder rectified the faults, I and my boss never heard anymore about it, but I took it as a lesson learned there could have been a different outcome had the woman or one of her family had an electric shock or died from a shock, so 40 years on an EICR takes as long as it takes to make sure my backside is covered
Do the guys bragging about the numbers they can do in a day take a chance on not missing something dangerous when they put their signature on the report or if it's a 17th+ edition CU with RCD's on everything does it significantly reduce the risk for them of someone dying or being seriously injured and therefore not having an appearance in court with the possibility of a room in one of Her Majesties hotels for a time
I always remember one of the first or possibly the first PIR's I did after finishing my apprenticeship it was on a house that had been extended and the builder needed an electrical cert for the council as it was a grant job, when I got there the women who answered the door was in the advanced stages of pregnancy and a bit stressed, after an hour of testing and checking the installation everything looked good then it started going downhill rapidly when I opened up a 2 way light switch in the garage that was going to be the last accessory that I checked and found the T&E had the earth used as one of the strappers after that the extension became a 100% inspection with a number of other non compliances found and a clearly unsatisfactory report. When I got back to the office my boss asked why the PIR had taken twice as long as it normally took as it had taken nearly 3 hours so I told him all the problems I had found and he agreed I was right with what I did.
The following morning I was in the office getting my job sheets for the day and the phone rang the boss answered and it was the irate husband from the house I was at the previous day wanting my details as he wanted me in court as his nearly 8 months pregnant wife had been admitted to hospital with a suspected miscarriage and it was my fault and he also wanted another electrician to go out and give them a satisfactory report as the builder had assured him there was nothing wrong with his electrical work my boss told him in no uncertain terms that it was not going to happen and he backed his electricians opinion and sending another one out would result in the same findings unless the builder rectified the faults, I and my boss never heard anymore about it, but I took it as a lesson learned there could have been a different outcome had the woman or one of her family had an electric shock or died from a shock, so 40 years on an EICR takes as long as it takes to make sure my backside is covered
It most definitely is a time taken issue otherwise the five a day brigade would be carrying out ten a day, the forcing of short time constraints on an employee or contractor is punishable under the CDM Regulations for construction work, don't make excuses for them do something about it.
I wonder how much the company charges each test for him doing 5 a day. He’s literally running round a blue arse fly, for likely with big company’s about £12.50 a hour, why they are laughing at him ranking in £120+ a test
The City & Guilds are just as bad as the schemes by allowing the get trained quick providers to devalue it's qualifications. The 2391 was meant to be an extension to and underpinned by a core qualification that was a requirement of entry to the course and exam yet every man and his dog can get the 2391 without meeting the course entry requirements if you pay the money to these quick training providers, yet the 2391 is still used as a measure of competence when it comes to inspect and test above any other qualification that may or may not be held by the operative looking for scheme assessment / membership or doing an ECIR.
Even the recent rental landlords EICR legislation is very woolly when it comes to the qualification and experience needed to carry out an EICR
Who actually has a duty of care opens up an interesting conversation as to where the duty of care is ultimately placed as everyone involved from the landlord / housing association, letting agent, certification companies and even the tennant all have a duty of care to each other you could also throw the schemes, training providers and qualification bodies into the mix
One thing is clear that cost is a major influence to many landlords / letting agents in meeting their duty of care requirements unfortunately the cheap EICR companies don't seem to discharge their responsibilities to those ordering the EICR's with the due diligence needed to protect the landlord interests
How the quality of ECIR's can be policed is a difficult one as the CP schemes have clearly lost their focus since the introduction of Part P in favour of improving their balance sheet,
Whether a combination of the local housing authority requiring rental EICR's to be notified and individual rather company registration for carrying out EICR's would help is another debate.
May be it needs a system similar to MOT testers only being able to carry out 1 MOT every 45 minutes is needed, you would log on tell the system the number of circuits and it would adjust the timings as to how long it would be before you could log on for the next EICR throw in some spot checks by location checking if you are not on site for the duration of the ECIR then what are you doing or cross checking with the landlord, letting agent or tenant
It's unfortunate that somebody needs to die or be seriously injured before there is any action Part P was supposed to improve the industry but before it's true effects could be analysed the 17th edition introduced RCD's on everything couple that with the quick training courses that appeared and the only point of reference we have is the number of CU's that suffer spontaneous combustion in the LFB area
Would anybody like to hazard a guess as to how many non compliant supposedly compliant installations there are out there with a a valid EICR because at 4 or 5 a day there must be a good number of problems slipping through the net
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No, but why does being in a scheme give any credibility to EICR's carried out by a 5 a day EICR operative
G
GBDamo
It's the prevalence of RCD protection that has allowed these chancers to get away with this.
It is highly, highly unlikely that someone will suffer a serious shock with an RCD present and functioning.
So, if the RCD isn't tripping and there are no visual concerns at the board/cutout, it's just a case of filling out the forms.
However, and this is the thing for, the schemes aren't questioning this.
Who here could even interrogate a system* and complete the paperwork in under an hour, factor in travel and there is no way any testing or inspection is being carried out.
I can't even believe the CU cover comes off.
*supply type, earthing system, bonding, circuit CSAs,
It is highly, highly unlikely that someone will suffer a serious shock with an RCD present and functioning.
So, if the RCD isn't tripping and there are no visual concerns at the board/cutout, it's just a case of filling out the forms.
However, and this is the thing for, the schemes aren't questioning this.
Who here could even interrogate a system* and complete the paperwork in under an hour, factor in travel and there is no way any testing or inspection is being carried out.
I can't even believe the CU cover comes off.
*supply type, earthing system, bonding, circuit CSAs,
This is a very interesting thread. My tuppence worth is simply that no matter what industry or profession is involved, the problem is simply the setting of "targets".
Worry over losing your job means "targets" can change the way someone does their job.
The banking and insurance business are other prime examples of targets making people do things they wouldn't normally do, or omit things they know they ought to do.
Targets are evil. I won't bore you with examples, but much misery has been caused by them, and greed and the imposition of targets caused the crash of 2008, and the scandal of mis-sold endowment policies is further clear evidence. Those scandals were bad enough, with financial ruin for many...in your profession as electricians death is a possible consequence...
Targets are evil.
Worry over losing your job means "targets" can change the way someone does their job.
The banking and insurance business are other prime examples of targets making people do things they wouldn't normally do, or omit things they know they ought to do.
Targets are evil. I won't bore you with examples, but much misery has been caused by them, and greed and the imposition of targets caused the crash of 2008, and the scandal of mis-sold endowment policies is further clear evidence. Those scandals were bad enough, with financial ruin for many...in your profession as electricians death is a possible consequence...
Targets are evil.
All company's are obsessed with targets, its the bain of everyday working lives for all, quality suffers, morale.
IMO you cant have quality and quantity the two just dont mix.
Of course companies are obsessed with targets, they try to set them at a realistic level, usually in consultation with the Union or workforce representative, companies need to know they are getting value for money, in days gone by I can remember a neighbour who talked extensively about how long he spent playing cards behind some packing case's, the company he worked for was a large multinational called AEG who no longer exist, I wonder why, if targets had existed then the company would have been making money instead of throwing it away on lazy employees.
I was just waiting for an answer like yours. lol
Anyway the point is about this very debate, achievable targets loads of comments about how 5 EICR's are not possible, my point is if they were met then it would not be 5 it would be 10, you must understand about the concept of targets, its about greed, not the very small percent about lazy oiks.
I was a stevedore for many years and spent many happy years playing cards on ships ?.....the company introduced a target system which resulted in damage and injuries as people took short cuts to meet the targets to get a bonus of get home earlier, once the company had sorted these issues and got productivity to a point they were happy with they removed the targets and rewards associated and constantly pushed for more in the hope that productivity would remain.....they didn’t.....
Quality too, I have seen it happen with my own eyes.
Its not a very small percentage of lazy oiks that send a successful company bankrupt or targets that cause accidents or damage it's the workforce trying to earn more money because of the way the unions had negotiated the targets and bonus system, don't get me wrong all of these systems and targets where a necessary evil in their day when the unions had the power to hold companies to ransom, perhaps I am a bit older than most on here and remember the unions holding the country to ransom on occasions, the piles of rotting waste along every street was not very nice especially with the power cuts at the same time, then the petrol shortage cause by pickets at the gates of depots etc......................
As a comment try telling Toyota that quality and quantity don't mix, or come to that any Japanese car manufacturer.
As a comment try telling Toyota that quality and quantity don't mix, or come to that any Japanese car manufacturer.
Successful companies do not get bought out, they go into receivership when they are no longer viable, AEG's assets where bought by Electrolux from the receiver.
Successful companies do get bought out usually by a hostile takeover
So Daimler-Benz took over AEG in 1985 and Electrolux acquired the AEG household division in 1994 but only obtained the rights to use the brand name in 2005. When did Daimler-Benz go into receivership then?
No idea, I am not trying to start an argument, it was just an opinion on the EICR results and how many should be done in a day, seems we have got way off track.
Well how many EICR can you do in a day legit?.
I have already said previously that when I did this it took me about two days for a three bedroom house with full inspection and documentation, but then I worked at my own speed with no one looking over my shoulder.
I don't see why that would make C&G bad. The adult training providers provide the exact same training an apprentice gets but in a condensed time frame. It's literally exactly the same - if you can do what an apprentice can do after 3 years you pass, if not, you don't.
The real problem is the lack of on-site experience and tutelage under an already-qualified spark.
But that's not the training providers fault. Anyone wanting to get into the industry has no chance after age 21 without these providers.
If anything i would have thought someone paying out almost ten grand to retrain would be more dedicated than your average 'stand on my phone all day fanying about' 16 year old.
I think it should be changed to make the quals line up with electricians mate work. Do the C&G and then it's a mandatory 2 years as a mate whilst doing the NVQ before you can work alone. That would seem more reasonable to me.
But the C&G is 90% theory and so you either know it or you don't. There's no reason it cannot be condensed from the 1 day a week over 2 years into a 16 week full-time course.
Yes, the (lack of) experience of putting theory in to practice is the issue.
But the training providers are selling these course to the trainees and industry as a solution to getting skilled staff quickly.
What is needed is more support for apprenticeship-like schemes for all ages, but I won't hold my breath waiting for that
It's not a sale for getting skilled staff quickly - even after the course you still have to pass the NVQ and AM2 which means you have to be working and providing evidence that you can do the job etc and the quickest i've ever heard of anyone doing it was about 6 weeks but he'd already been working in the game for several years before doing proper training.Yes, the (lack of) experience of putting theory in to practice is the issue.
But the training providers are selling these course to the trainees and industry as a solution to getting skilled staff quickly.
What is needed is more support for apprenticeship-like schemes for all ages, but I won't hold my breath waiting for that
They say allow at least 6-18 months depending on the speed of your uptake of information etc.
I mean i guess you can go sign up to a scam and do it that way without the NVQ but you can do that with essentially no training at all.
I'm retraining at the minute after years out of the game and i intend on only looking for work as a mate for at least a year after i've passed my C&G/Inspection and Testing/18th ed.
I should have a headstart on a lot of other people since i can essentially build a house from scratch already but it's nice to know i'm at the level of a freshly qualified spark before tackling work on my own. I just don't see how someone can do a course and then just be off out into the wide world alone unless they are doing very basic work.
You need to realise that everyone is different. I know that flies in the face of the modern world view that we are all homogenous... but we're not. So someone that's been through the whole apprenticeship/NVQ/AM2 route might not be as 'good' as someone that's been on short courses and self-trained.
Personally, I don't trust anyones 'qualifications' (regardless of subject/vocation). I've known too many people over the years with all the right things on paper but are totally useless !
There's far too much OCS (official certificate syndrome) going on these days for my liking...
Personally, I don't trust anyones 'qualifications' (regardless of subject/vocation). I've known too many people over the years with all the right things on paper but are totally useless !
There's far too much OCS (official certificate syndrome) going on these days for my liking...
When I was working on the Tower Hotel, the fitter on site welded a Phosphor Bonze bracket with standard welding gear, I told him that's not possible, well one geotechnical Xray proved me wrong and him right, according to science I should have been to one that was correct, the old boy that carried out the welding had no qualifications just years of experience.
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