I thought short courses were fine. Just done a week on site. Now i think they're not fit for purpose.

[Electrics]

This might be long so feel free to grab a brew.

So, as some of you may know, i'm a 34 year old who has been dying to get into the industry. I have fought for years to get someone to take me on and have been unsuccessful despite having a background in construction (I can basically build a whole house on my own) and can do the electrical basics.

I was so frustrated for years that I thought the only way I could get into the game was by doing one of those 16 week courses that promises to get your Level 3 C&G. I've actually signed up to one of the providers and then backed out on two separate occasions - one of them cost me a £150 deposit.

While I still think that sure, they're great at cramming and you get the exact same theory as someone on an apprenticeship route gets, it's become apparent to me that in the real world they're not worth the paper they're written on even if you get the same theory. Why? Experience. It's missing.

I thought, sure, once I can wire lights and sockets etc I can just apply it to any situation. I'm now not sure it actually works like that.

So what changed? I GOT A JOB. I'm on a 2 week trial for a potential traineeship/apprenticeship with a bigish (18+ blokes) firm in my area.

I like to think I'm alright at the basics already - I could rewire a house if I really needed to. But my it's been a shock and a real eye opener as to just how you cannot replace experience.

So day 1, I get sent to a massive factory which makes car parts and I'm helping put in 120 SWA. This stuff as I'm sure you know is the thickness of a 500ml coke bottle and heavy to boot.

I'm working in these two modules that have been unplugged and moved to a different part of the factory and then have to be connected back up again. They're in welding bays. It's absolutely manky. I came home looking like I'd been down a pit. Stuff isn't labelled up properly. There are cables missing. There are DB's all over the place in this factory, and also cabinets full of module switching, ethernet, and communication cables that all had to be sorted. There was electric shuttters. There was masses of massive cables that had to be tied properly and neatly. There was tonnes of unistrut and trunking as well as tray that needed to be installed and fitted correctly.

Day 3 I'm at a hospice doing emergency lighting tests. Then we go to a rented property and sort out some snagging - FCU's, light fittings, bathroom extractor, outside switched light.

Day 4 I'm at an airport putting in sockets and lights in conduit.

Day 5 I'm at a garden centre replacing lights.

This is just the first week. I now don't think it's possible to go from a short course into this big bad world of electrics with so many different kinds of jobs and be able to know what you're doing, qualified on paper or not. Putting in new cables is easy. Figuring out what someone else has done can be difficult.

If we ignore the technical aspect of the job there are just so many different fixtures and fittings available and they all get fit in slightly different ways. There's just no way. You cannot learn this from a short course.

I always thought those who poo-poo'd these courses were elitist jerks but I now realise why - they knew something I didn't. They're in the game, they're doing the work, they see it day in day out. Youtube house bashers make it look fairly straightforward and I still believe that when it comes to single phase domestic, it's still probably possible to do a short course and build up experience on smaller jobs.

But to be a proper electrician I now believe that you cannot become a proper well rounded electrician without actually DOING the job.

To those of you in similar situations to what I was - don't give up. I've been trying to get someone to take me on since I was 25 in 2012 and have had no joy. I'm now 9 years older and someone finally decided to give me a shot.

Keep plugging away and if you need to, enrol at college and try to convince someone to take you on on the back of that. Think twice about dropping thousands on short training which is going to leave you absolutely stumped at the first sign of a problem you're not familiar with.

Working on the job around other people who can show you the ropes is invaluable. I've already learned so much in my first week and I thought I knew most of it already. I knew jack. But I now have people to ask when I'm not sure, instead of trying to guess it myself.

Now the real learning begins.

Thanks for reading.

 

[Dustydazzler]

My apprentice days were similar to what the OP talked about and I loved them day s, 2 weeks house bashing on a new site , then sent to a factory to help pull in big swa , then sent to a brand new office refit putting up tray and wiring up click roses to put up 200 panel lights . it was varied , it was testing and most importantly i went home knackered most days but always felt like i have learned something new. i had college 1 day a week and this was the old 2360-pt1-pt2.

i honestly loved every minute of those early days , i felt so luck i had a good mentors who actually let me have a go at things and not just left to sweep the floor

 

[nicebutdim]

My apprentice days were similar to what the OP talked about and I loved them day s, 2 weeks house bashing on a new site , then sent to a factory to help pull in big swa , then sent to a brand new office refit putting up tray and wiring up click roses to put up 200 panel lights . it was varied , it was testing and most importantly i went home knackered most days but always felt like i have learned something new. i had college 1 day a week and this was the old 2360-pt1-pt2.

i honestly loved every minute of those early days , i felt so luck i had a good mentors who actually let me have a go at things and not just left to sweep the floor

Other than not doing any domestic, this sounds like my own apprenticeship - continually learning and a huge variation in the type of work from day to day.

Couldn't have asked for better, but I'd like the day in college to be more challenging.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Other than not doing any domestic, this sounds like my own apprenticeship - continually learning and a huge variation in the type of work from day to day.

Couldn't have asked for better, but I'd like the day in college to be more challenging.

I found some parts of college quite a challenge as I was pretty new to the game when I started college and had limited site experience to call on the first new months , other than a few weeks here and there with my day who was also a factory sparks

What would be interesting would be to start a fresh apprenticeship now and see how it compared to 25 years ago

 

[nicebutdim]

I found some parts of college quite a challenge as I was pretty new to the game when I started college and had limited site experience to call on the first new months , other than a few weeks here and there with my day who was also a factory sparks

What would be interesting would be to start a fresh apprenticeship now and see how it compared to 25 years ago

Chances are I'll find a few aspects of it fairly challenging as time passes, but it all seems to move rather slowly at this point.

 

[UNG]

I think a smart person could easily learn the basics in a year to be a domestic electrician . Just the right coursework /training .

So a whole new can of worms opens up
How do you define a "smart person" then how do you overcome the discrimination that will cause when some don't make the grade as a smart person
If you only learn the "basics" would that not make you a "basic domestic electrician" and what training progression will be needed to progress from the basic level

At what point does the industry educate the public on how to choose an electrician when "I'm an electrician" could cover widely differing levels of knowledge and experience. I've been to a few faults over the last few years where the customers had engaged a number of electricians to find faults and been challenged with what makes you think you will find the fault when all the previous ones haven't, all faults found and then I get why couldn't they find them then you have to tell them what state the industry is in

It's all to easy to dilute the pool and before you realise it you have a lot of "electricians" and a lot of problems they can't solve

 

[James]

So a whole new can of worms opens up
How do you define a "smart person" then how do you overcome the discrimination that will cause when some don't make the grade as a smart person
If you only learn the "basics" would that not make you a "basic domestic electrician" and what training progression will be needed to progress from the basic level

At what point does the industry educate the public on how to choose an electrician when "I'm an electrician" could cover widely differing levels of knowledge and experience. I've been to a few faults over the last few years where the customers had engaged a number of electricians to find faults and been challenged with what makes you think you will find the fault when all the previous ones haven't, all faults found and then I get why couldn't they find them then you have to tell them what state the industry is in

It's all to easy to dilute the pool and before you realise it you have a lot of "electricians" and a lot of problems they can't solve

Most satisfying faults to find and fix are the ones where you get called in as the 2nd or 3rd “electrician “
often the opening conversation starts along the lines of, I doubt you can fix it because x others have tried and failed.
can be good fun to point out the fault, how you found it and what you did to fix it.
often you earn a customer for life and some A rated recommendations.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Most satisfying faults to find and fix are the ones where you get called in as the 2nd or 3rd “electrician “
often the opening conversation starts along the lines of, I doubt you can fix it because x others have tried and failed.
can be good fun to point out the fault, how you found it and what you did to fix it.
often you earn a customer for life and some A rated recommendations.

even better , video yourself doing the job and put it up on youtube

 

[timhoward]

I've been to a few faults over the last few years where the customers had engaged a number of electricians to find faults and been challenged with what makes you think you will find the fault when all the previous ones haven't, all faults found and then I get why couldn't they find them then you have to tell them what state the industry is in

Point taken, but to be completely honest I'm not sure even longer recognised training paths are brilliant at teaching fault finding. Testing and inspection seems to be taught in a sort of painting by numbers way, and if it goes off script many newly qualified people struggle. Some of the posts on this forum are ample evidence of this. I think real world experience is where people develop fault-finding skills.

There are always exceptions too - there's a lad near me that did a short course, but prior to that got an A grade in A level physics. As one might expect he's very good at fault finding.
My point is that the length of course might affect many things but fault finding seems to be something people are gifted at or not, and it might possibly be more about the person and their ability than the course they happen to do.
This doesn't detract from your general point that the public have no idea what they are actually getting when they seek a 'qualified electrician'.

 

[Lister1987]

Point taken, but to be completely honest I'm not sure even longer recognised training paths are brilliant at teaching fault finding. Testing and inspection seems to be taught in a sort of painting by numbers way, and if it goes off script many newly qualified people struggle. Some of the posts on this forum are ample evidence of this. I think real world experience is where people develop fault-finding skills.

There are always exceptions too - there's a lad near me that did a short course, but prior to that got an A grade in A level physics. As one might expect he's very good at fault finding.
My point is that the length of course might affect many things but fault finding seems to be something people are gifted at or not, and it might possibly be more about the person and their ability than the course they happen to do.
This doesn't detract from your general point that the public have no idea what they are actually getting when they seek a 'qualified electrician'.

Fault finding (much like that inspection element of Inspection and Testing) is something that can be taught fundamentaly but is honed and improved on over time; you have a basic start point (did any device trip, if so what device?, Is there continuity were there should be and inversely where there shouldn't be?, has the user done or changed anything recently? What has the weather been like...and so on) but improving on that and interpretating the answer comes over time.

Anyone can do testing, not everyone can do inspecting as 1 is 'simple' and thr other is complex.

 

[DPG]

Fault finding (much like that inspection element of Inspection and Testing) is something that can be taught fundamentaly but is honed and improved on over time; you have a basic start point (did any device trip, if so what device?, Is there continuity were there should be and inversely where there shouldn't be?, has the user done or changed anything recently? What has the weather been like...and so on) but improving on that and interpretating the answer comes over time.

Anyone can do testing, not everyone can do inspecting as 1 is 'simple' and thr other is complex.

I disagree. Some people seem to have their brain wired in a way that isn't suited to methodical fault-finding, regardless of whether it is an electrical problem or something entirely unrelated.

 

[UNG]

Fault finding (much like that inspection element of Inspection and Testing) is something that can be taught fundamentaly but is honed and improved on over time; you have a basic start point (did any device trip, if so what device?, Is there continuity were there should be and inversely where there shouldn't be?, has the user done or changed anything recently? What has the weather been like...and so on) but improving on that and interpretating the answer comes over time.

I think your post is flawed and demonstrates a lack of knowledge regarding real fault finding, to confuse fault finding with inspection and testing blurs the lines between working with known standards and ensuring compliance on a go no go basis and fault finding where the test values achieved need to be interpreted correctly to have any idea of what you are looking for

It is difficult to teach fault finding beyond the basic principles, over time you develop your own methods how long it takes to do that can vary, when you have the production manager on your back because many £000's are being lost every hour it focuses you quite quickly, after a few years experience especially if you are involved in PPM work then you can often see developing faults before they become a fault

While fault finding has a number of basic principles it also combines a number of other wider skills not least choosing the optimum type of test equipment for the fault you are trying to locate and then understanding and interpreting the readings it gives you.

I agree that asking the right questions at the right technical level that the customer can process is another skill as sometimes you have to lead the customer through the problem to track / locate / narrow down the fault

Anyone can do testing, not everyone can do inspecting as 1 is 'simple' and thr other is complex.

I think you are wrong, there is more to testing than pressing a button on an MFT and expecting to see the right numbers, with inspecting it is simple when you can see what you are inspecting but good inspection is finding the things hidden in cupboards and joints buried in walls / hidden in trunking

Most of my fault finding skills come from working across all the industry sectors and a lot crosses over from sector to sector my apprenticeship was more industrial and commercial based where spending a little bit of time with the machine wiring diagram can save quite a bit of time locating the fault

Fault finding is like lock picking the more experience you have the easier and quicker the process becomes the key at times is not over thinking the problem and use the KISS principle although at times moving away from the day to day test equipment can save a lot of time

 

[Lister1987]

I think your post is flawed and demonstrates a lack of knowledge regarding real fault finding, to confuse fault finding with inspection and testing blurs the lines between working with known standards and ensuring compliance on a go no go basis and fault finding where the test values achieved need to be interpreted correctly to have any idea of what you are looking for

It is difficult to teach fault finding beyond the basic principles, over time you develop your own methods how long it takes to do that can vary, when you have the production manager on your back because many £000's are being lost every hour it focuses you quite quickly, after a few years experience especially if you are involved in PPM work then you can often see developing faults before they become a fault

While fault finding has a number of basic principles it also combines a number of other wider skills not least choosing the optimum type of test equipment for the fault you are trying to locate and then understanding and interpreting the readings it gives you.

I agree that asking the right questions at the right technical level that the customer can process is another skill as sometimes you have to lead the customer through the problem to track / locate / narrow down the fault


I think you are wrong, there is more to testing than pressing a button on an MFT and expecting to see the right numbers, with inspecting it is simple when you can see what you are inspecting but good inspection is finding the things hidden in cupboards and joints buried in walls / hidden in trunking

Most of my fault finding skills come from working across all the industry sectors and a lot crosses over from sector to sector my apprenticeship was more industrial and commercial based where spending a little bit of time with the machine wiring diagram can save quite a bit of time locating the fault

Fault finding is like lock picking the more experience you have the easier and quicker the process becomes the key at times is not over thinking the problem and use the KISS principle although at times moving away from the day to day test equipment can save a lot of time

I don't disagree with most of that, I do disagree with me confusing inspection & testing Vs fault finding, I know they can be and often are very different beasts. I know with IV you HAVE to work sequencially whereas fault finding and EICR you wouldn't necessarily do all the tests, even in the right order.

You can teach the purpose and limitations of testing, you can teach fundamental basics of inspection & fault finding (otherwise what's the point in the 2391?), It takes time to hone technique there's no doubt about that. It takes the right mindset to do deeper (checking places where most wouldn't bother or jist LIM for an easy life), without that mindset and desire to go beyond the surface then it's just monkey press, monkey write and monkey get paid.

Anyone can press a button and write down a number, not everyone can interpret the results in a meaningful way (which is what I was trying to say).

I'm green and inexperienced there's no denying that but I like to think my understanding is where it should be. I'm wanting to improve and further myself so any shortcomings that may be evident from participation in this thread, please constructively point them out and guide me to better understanding.

 

[ipf]

I don't disagree with most of that, I do disagree with me confusing inspection & testing Vs fault finding, I know they can be and often are very different beasts. I know with IV you HAVE to work sequencially whereas fault finding and EICR you wouldn't necessarily do all the tests, even in the right order.
You can teach the purpose and limitations of testing, you can teach fundamental basics of inspection & fault finding (otherwise what's the point in the 2391?)
Anyone can press a button and write down a number, not everyone can interpret the results in a meaningful way (which is what I was trying to say).

That last paragraph sums it up.......from a 2391 point of view.

I've known blokes who wouldn't have much understanding of what 2391 entails......or what or where a sequence comes in to it...but they've known how to find a machine fault with a drawing in front of them or a wiring fault when something has gone wrong. Giving them a pen and paper asking for an essay explanation of what they've done would have been like handing them a blindfold.
Fault finding does cover a huge field and isn't always a case of 'by the book'.

 

[timhoward]

@Lister1987 I'm not really disagreeing, a couple of comments:

I know with IV you HAVE to work sequencially whereas fault finding and EICR you wouldn't necessarily do all the tests, even in the right order.

Even on an EICR doing IR tests as late as possible with everything back together is good practise, so if I've put an accessory screw through a conductor at a light switch or socket or caught something in a metal trunking cover it's picked up by the test. It's very embarrassing if a stupid mistake while carrying out T&I actually makes something worse!

You can teach the purpose and limitations of testing, you can teach fundamental basics of inspection & fault finding (otherwise what's the point in the 2391?)...

Tracking down faults requires skills and thinking processes that are simply not taught as far as I can tell..
A real life EICR example from this year....IR testing an older CU with an RCD main switch.
Circuit 1, L+N bar to cpc bar is 80 Mohm (pass)
Circuit 2, L+N bar to cpc bar is 40 Mohms (pass)
Circuits 3-7, L+N bar to cpc bar is 0 Mohms.
Circuit 1 again, L+N bar to cpc bar is now 0 ohms.
Circuit 2 again, L+N bar to cpc bar is now 0 ohms.
Does anything you learn at college help you know what to do next? At this point no circuit can be turned on without tripping the RCD, and the tenant is getting cold. I'm sure a lot of the members on here would know exactly what to do next but would an average newly-qualified person who has just passed 2391-52?

Anyone can press a button and write down a number, not everyone can interpret the results in a meaningful way (which is what I was trying to say).

Agreed.

 

[brianmoooore]

where spending a little bit of time with the machine wiring diagram can save quite a bit of time locating the fault

Until, after an hour or so of head scratching and doubting yourself, you realise that the relevant part bears little resemblance to what's in front of you.