I want a 16 amp socket in the garage with 3 double sockets

[DomSal]

I have a 4mm2 armored cable going from the CU in the house, under the drive and into the garage. The breaker for this is a 16 amp type B. I want to have 2.2KW planer machine in the garage that has a 16 amp plug whilst also keeping three existing double sockets in the garage. The three double sockets are currently daisy chained (radial connection?) using 2.5mm2 cable.

Should I have another CU installed in the garage that is fed by the existing armored cable and have the new 16Amp socket on a separate breaker (type C breaker is recommended by manufacturer)? The lighting and sockets could then be on their own breakers too.

Should I (can I) increase the breaker in the house CU and by how much?

Should the socket wiring should be upgraded to 4mm2 as it is not in a ring?

 

[Fiskey878]

I want to do the same, my ring main comes from my house into my adjoining garage then back in to the house. If the last socket on the ring main is in the garage, can I just disconnect one of the cables pull back to the 16A commando unit then put a leg back to the socket so it’s just added in like an extra socket? It’s in a 32a breaker, the 16a plug is a belt grinder and the motor is 1.5kw which has a lead not earthed! with no fuse but 3 pin plug. It keeps blowing the fuse on the extension cable I’ve got it plugged into when it starts up, this doesn’t happen all the time but it’s on start up the times it has. Don’t want to try anymore! Any help much appreciated

 

[loz2754]

I want to do the same, my ring main comes from my house into my adjoining garage then back in to the house. If the last socket on the ring main is in the garage, can I just disconnect one of the cables pull back to the 16A commando unit then put a leg back to the socket so it’s just added in like an extra socket? It’s in a 32a breaker, the 16a plug is a belt grinder and the motor is 1.5kw which has a lead not earthed! with no fuse but 3 pin plug. It keeps blowing the fuse on the extension cable I’ve got it plugged into when it starts up, this doesn’t happen all the time but it’s on start up the times it has. Don’t want to try anymore! Any help much appreciated

No. A ring final circuit is designed only for BS1363 sockets and other accessories.
A 16A socket is not a BS1363 accessory, and cannot be used in the way you suggest.
The reason being, there is no fuse in a 16A plug.

 

[Fiskey878]

No. A ring final circuit is designed only for BS1363 sockets and other accessories.
A 16A socket is not a BS1363 accessory, and cannot be used in the way you suggest.
The reason being, there is no fuse in a 16A plug.

Yes but the ring only goes out into the garage now so what if I reduce the breaker to a 20amp will that then not be ok? Or I could split it out there and have 2 radial circuits I suppose? Thanks for getting back anyway

 

[Julie.]

Yes but the ring only goes out into the garage now so what if I reduce the breaker to a 20amp will that then not be ok? Or I could split it out there and have 2 radial circuits I suppose? Thanks for getting back anyway

There are two reasons why the industrial 16A socket is not permitted in residential, the first is that standard accessories have an integral fuse because of the normal 32A mcb protection on a ring, but fitting the 16A outlet on a single radial circuit on a 16A mcb solves this.

However the most critical reason is that all equipment for residential has protection against small fingers and poking! Usually via shutters, take the standard 13A outlet as an example; this just isn't present with the 16A or 32A industrial equipment outlets, in this case a child or adult could easily come in direct contact with live conductors. (Think of a small piece of swarf or similar)

There is a workaround, because although the standard indicates that bs1363 sockets must be used, you are allowed to substitute other equipment provided it provides no less protection.

A standard 16A outlet does not meet this requirement, but there are 16A outlets and plugs with interlocking, these have an isolator switch.

In this case when a suitable plug is inserted the switch may be switched on, but then the plug cannot be removed, without a plug in, the switch cannot be turned on.

This would provide the required level of protection provided it is supplied by a 16A mcb.

 

[Fiskey878]

There are two reasons why the industrial 16A socket is not permitted in residential, the first is that standard accessories have an integral fuse because of the normal 32A mcb protection on a ring, but fitting the 16A outlet on a single radial circuit on a 16A mcb solves this.

However the most critical reason is that all equipment for residential has protection against small fingers and poking! Usually via shutters, take the standard 13A outlet as an example; this just isn't present with the 16A or 32A industrial equipment outlets, in this case a child or adult could easily come in direct contact with live conductors. (Think of a small piece of swarf or similar)

There is a workaround, because although the standard indicates that bs1363 sockets must be used, you are allowed to substitute other equipment provided it provides no less protection.

A standard 16A outlet does not meet this requirement, but there are 16A outlets and plugs with interlocking, these have an isolator switch.

In this case when a suitable plug is inserted the switch may be switched on, but then the plug cannot be removed, without a plug in, the switch cannot be turned on.

This would provide the required level of protection provided it is supplied by a 16A mcb.

Thank you very much. I did get a commando unit that has the switch with protection and it’s going on 16amp mcb. All is solved! All that and it’s only a 1500w motor

 

[loz2754]

Glad you got it resolved.

 

[Julie.]

Thank you very much. I did get a commando unit that has the switch with protection and it’s going on 16amp mcb. All is solved! All that and it’s only a 1500w motor

You need to check, just having a switch is not enough, it has to be interlocked between the switch and outlet some are and some aren't.

Do you have the type/picture of the one proposed?

 

[Fiskey878]

You need to check, just having a switch is not enough, it has to be interlocked between the switch and outlet some are and some aren't.

Do you have the type/picture of the one proposed?

Hi, I’ve got my hands on it and it’s installed already, you can’t turn it on at all unless there’s a plug in and you can’t pull the plug when it’s turned on. It’s only running at 9.1amps as well so I’m not worried about it any more lol. Thanks again for your help

 

[Rockingit]

There are two reasons why the industrial 16A socket is not permitted in residential, the first is that standard accessories have an integral fuse because of the normal 32A mcb protection on a ring, but fitting the 16A outlet on a single radial circuit on a 16A mcb solves this.

However the most critical reason is that all equipment for residential has protection against small fingers and poking! Usually via shutters, take the standard 13A outlet as an example; this just isn't present with the 16A or 32A industrial equipment outlets, in this case a child or adult could easily come in direct contact with live conductors. (Think of a small piece of swarf or similar)

There is a workaround, because although the standard indicates that bs1363 sockets must be used, you are allowed to substitute other equipment provided it provides no less protection.

A standard 16A outlet does not meet this requirement, but there are 16A outlets and plugs with interlocking, these have an isolator switch.

In this case when a suitable plug is inserted the switch may be switched on, but then the plug cannot be removed, without a plug in, the switch cannot be turned on.

This would provide the required level of protection provided it is supplied by a 16A mcb.

Whilst I agree with you entirely in principle, I don’t believe that it’s actually mandated anywhere in regulations (either electrical or building) that you can only use BS1363 in a dwelling?? Happy to be schooled on this if not so!

 

[Intoelectrics]

Thank you for the information. They say that type C is 'recommended' but they don't say it is a necessity. If my type B breaker doesn't trip does this mean I'm OK to use it with the planer?

You can always try it first. If the planer starts and runs fine on a standard 13amp plug top then you are not losing protection. Be sure to make sure the RCD protection for this circuit is working properly. Very easy to catch and damage a flexi lead with a power tool like this.

Though if you are running the lighting & other items from the other sockets simultaneously then you should seriously consider the advice given so far and see about improving and altering the existing supply to accommodate you new requirements.

 

[Julie.]

Whilst I agree with you entirely in principle, I don’t believe that it’s actually mandated anywhere in regulations (either electrical or building) that you can only use BS1363 in a dwelling?? Happy to be schooled on this if not so!

553.1.201

Every outlet for household shall be shuttered and preferably bs1363

(Paraphrasing as I haven't got my book to hand)

It's the lack of shutters on a 16A outlet that is prohibited.

 

[As1999]

Thanks for your reply. The CU in the house is RCD protected so I guess I don't need an RCD in the garage too. Would I be correct in thinking that I only need to uprate the house CU breaker to the garage if it keeps tripping due to overload? I was thinking to maybe install a 20 Amp type C in the house CU that will feed the garage CU.

I would personally add a rcd in the garage cu even if the house db has one. Saves the hassle of the entire house loosing power.

 

[timhoward]

I would personally add a rcd in the garage cu even if the house db has one. Saves the hassle of the entire house loosing power.

How would you ensure only the garage one trips?

 

[As1999]

How would you ensure only the garage one trips?

Should preface this by saying I’m not fully qualified yet - just waiting for nvq 3 from my employer!

But rcd discrimination would ensure garage trips first if there’s a fault there no? Correct me if I’m wrong !

 

[timhoward]

Should preface this by saying I’m not fully qualified yet - just waiting for nvq 3 from my employer!

But rcd discrimination would ensure garage trips first if there’s a fault there no? Correct me if I’m wrong !

If you could achieve RCD discrimination, then yes. I believe it would be rather hard to do in these circumstances, assuming there's already a 30ma RCD in the house.