I'm collecting stats for a govt report - Competent person schemes

[Sparky Ninja]

Hi all.

I am collecting evidence for a report on the current 'strategy' and trust given to the competent person schemes by the Communities and Local Government Committee (CLGC).

I am not sure if you are aware, but the committee reviewed it a couple of years ago, and the conclusion from the committee was that it needed to be changed significantly. Unfortunately, the minister (who made the decision in Govt) chose to keep the status quo much to the committee's disbelief.

With the 18th edition looming and licensing finally rising to the attention of the JIB and ECA (basically the NICEIC are the ones against licensing and the ECA's relationship with the NICEIC is a problem), there are plans to change things in the next couple of years.

I am representing a group of electricians that feel that the CPS have taken from the industry and have not put enough back into it, and the industry has weakened since the introduction of Part P. What's missing is industrial representation.

There is an opportunity for an industry lead voluntary body, meaning created by electricians. Where every member invests and is responsible for its running, a bit like a co-op organisation. The idea has been delivered and has been very warmly welcomed. UKAS has confirmed that they would recognise such an organisation and so it could even be considered as the newest competence person scheme in the long list of competent person schemes. But it would be nothing like what we have now.

Getting rid of Part P cannot be the advice to the govt from this industry, but we can show them how capable we are of working to the requirements of Part P.



So what stats do we need..

well the govt loves surveys, and stats and evidence etc.


We need to collect evidence from the industries electricians to get a larger overview of how the industry is at the moment.
Clearly the viewpoint of those that approached initially is that we are looking for change..so most of our own evidence is from negative backgrounds.

So please, if you have good things to say about the CPS, or you know a colleague that does, then please provide some feedback too.


I could comb the internet looking for positive and negative opinions, but then we would have to request permission each time to publish them in the report. So for now I would like to say that..

'every response to this thread is an offer of evidence for use, to put into the report'

If you have previously glorified or moaned before then you can put a link in here to YOUR previous post.



Anything you would like to offer?

How many QS' are there to electricians in your workplace?
Is the person arriving at the customers front door a competent person, or is the work signed off by a competent person later? or maybe even remotely?
What should the annual cost be?
Do you feel they have supported you in your work?
Was your assessment sufficient?
Have you ever seen work carried out by a registered installer poorly?
Should there be a separate assessment fee to member fee?
Have the CPS improved public awareness of Part P?
Have they saved your bacon?

Anything you want guys, good and/or bad.

But please note.. a post such as "the schemes suck" doesn't really provide sufficient grounds for evidence and is more of an attack.





cheers

widdler

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

With the 18th edition looming and licensing finally rising to the attention of the JIB and ECA (basically the NICEIC are the ones against licensing and the ECA's relationship with the NICEIC is a problem), there are plans to change things in the next couple of years.


so what are you saying exactly, that the government will change the scheme rules to enforce the qualified supervisor rules... or make us all have a gold card? i have never done the nvq3 but have the 2365 L2 + 3 ... so would i be at the mercy of the mighty JIB and its policies as to whether i can work or not? Suppose i could do one of them domestic only nvqs but question whether any real changes will come as NICEIC pretty much have a monopoly in all but name over the industry now...
I seriously doubt any meaningful changes will occur, yes there are cowboys on some of these schemes... but there are also a lot of good sparks who may not have the regular conventional qualifications but i would sooner trust them than a fresh faced kid brimming with a glossy nvq certificate anyday of the week.
Yes, we moan about the schemes and the cost but given the amount of money at stake here and the lobbying power of them i do not see any minister changing things too much.

you also confuse industrial electricians with domestic sector... i think the 2 should be completely seperate in how they are policed,afterall part p doesnt really come in to play in industry or big commercial stuff. its the old competent chestnut... with domestics due to the fire risks and safety of people they have rightly tried to bring up standards with the various schemes, on the whole though it has improved things. it may not seem that way but overall i think anybody would say its been largely successful...

 

[telectrix]

i disagree. evidence from london fire brigade showed statistics of electrically caused house fires to have dropped 17% 2004 -2008, due, it is said, to part p.

now the report an increase in same fires 2008 -2013, due, they say to pastic CUs.leading up to amd.3 (metal CUs). we all know that this is not the case. the increase is due to poorly trained, inexperienced domestic installers being incompetent to terminate cables correctly. also a result of part p.

 

[Ian1981]

There does need to be a minimum qualification standard to be called an electrician and the NVQ 3 is it at the moment.
Where I do sympathise with electricians out there who currently don't have the qualification (not really talking about older sparks before the NVQ was introduced) especially if they are competent in their job, we do need a minimum qualification standard and the NVQ 3 combines the theory and practical skills needed so I welcome it.
All electricians should have a card showing their qualifications in my opinion it's the only way as you are graded by an external source (the JIB at the moment) verified by your certificates gained.

 

[Midwest]

Hi all.

I am collecting evidence for a report on the current 'strategy' and trust given to the competent person schemes by the Communities and Local Government Committee (CLGC).

Not doubting you widdler, but I for one would like to see some form authenticity for this 'report' before I would comment, and I would suggest others would also.

As you've said there was a back bench committee convened on Part P a few years back, which seems to have gone stale. What scope has your 'report', who is compiling it, and who do they report to?

 

[telectrix]

There does need to be a minimum qualification standard to be called an electrician and the NVQ 3 is it at the moment.
Where I do sympathise with electricians out there who currently don't have the qualification (not really talking about older sparks before the NVQ was introduced) especially if they are competent in their job, we do need a minimum qualification standard and the NVQ 3 combines the theory and practical skills needed so I welcome it.
All electricians should have a card showing their qualifications in my opinion it's the only way as you are graded by an external source (the JIB at the moment) verified by your certificates gained.

trouble is the industry is in a terrible state, due mainly to pare pee. and the scams riding on the income from it. i qualified before nvq's had been invented. my qualis equivalent to today;s nvq4, but if i don't pay the ransom to niceic or one of the other sacms, i'm notlegally allowed to change a CU in my own bloody nest.well,

 

[Ian1981]

trouble is the industry is in a terrible state, due mainly to pare pee. and the scams riding on the income from it. i qualified before nvq's had been invented. my qualis equivalent to today;s nvq4, but if i don't pay the ransom to niceic or one of the other sacms, i'm notlegally allowed to change a CU in my own bloody nest.well,

View attachment 37390

I should have clarified, by having a card or 'licence ' then this should enable you to carry out and certify your own work under a changed system.
People like yourself who are pre NVQ will have the requirements anyway to be called an electrician and more.

 

[westward10]

I like being pre NVQ I feel better qualified, not disrespecting you NVQueers of course

 

[Leesparkykent]

I does make me laugh when people who done the core underpinning knowledge qualifications or started an apprenticeship after the NVQ (1999 I believe) was introduced start moaning about about not being able to get an electricians graded JIB card....Since the NVQ was introduced it's been the minimum qualification you need to get graded as an electrician. So if you want a gold card go and do your NVQ just like the rest of us who have done it, so we could be graded as such.

 

[Ian1981]

I like being pre NVQ I feel better qualified, not disrespecting you NVQueers of course

None taken as I'm a 'young un'
Well is 35 considered young?

 

[Sparky Ninja]

Not doubting you widdler, but I for one would like to see some form authenticity for this 'report' before I would comment, and I would suggest others would also.

As you've said there was a back bench committee convened on Part P a few years back, which seems to have gone stale. What scope has your 'report', who is compiling it, and who do they report to?

That's perfectly understandable.

I need to be careful not to give too much info away as yet as we have had some leaks of information already and some of our evidence has now been 'removed' so-to-speak.

I can tell you that we are a closed group, for now, mainly consisting of moaners and groaners and we formed on Linkedin.

I personally went to attend the select committee back on 6th January 2014 and we provided evidence then that Part P wasn't working. As I said in my post above the committee were on board with the understanding that it was all potentially dangerous and they were dismayed that the minister ignored all of their advisors.

Anyways since that, over time, we have all moaned to each other over things and ideas have been coming and going by many. Some of us came up with an idea, which I have briefly touched on, but there has never been a significant argument to bring it to anyone's attention. We thought about it with Amendment 3 and the info Telectrix referred to but there wasn't sufficient evidence (at the time) supporting the argument that the CPS have flooded our industry with lesser skilled workers.

So why now, well the Committee had been dissolved and is currently undergoing re-appointment (new government) but fortunately Clive Betts MP has been re-elected as chair and is currently refilling the committee. There was a very good chance that the committee may have a similar mindset (the CLGC does have a reputation for not changing personnel a lot between governments) so we decided to a write a letter congratulating him, thanking him and the committee for their efforts with Part P (you should watch the ParliamentTV videos if you think they didn't take it seriously) and offering a little idea on the present.

We got a very quick response requesting further information on both what we provided but also with regards to our understanding and 'knowledge as competent electricians' on the Electrical Equipment (safety) Regulations 2016.

It looks like there may be revisions under Part P (or somewhere else) for competent persons to provide some sort of 'observation and advice' for homeowners with regards to the safe use of electrical equipment. We were confused at first but then found out that investigations and support for Grenfell Tower are coming from the CLGC so it made sense. It's early days but it looks like there may be something coming in for electrical equipment maintenance/risk assessment as a mandatory requirement for houses of multiple occupancy or something.


Anyway, that's why and how. But if you are sceptical then feel free to just read and not contribute.

 

[Sparky Ninja]

With the 18th edition looming and licensing finally rising to the attention of the JIB and ECA (basically the NICEIC are the ones against licensing and the ECA's relationship with the NICEIC is a problem), there are plans to change things in the next couple of years.


so what are you saying exactly, that the government will change the scheme rules to enforce the qualified supervisor rules... or make us all have a gold card? i have never done the nvq3 but have the 2365 L2 + 3 ... so would i be at the mercy of the mighty JIB and its policies as to whether i can work or not? Suppose i could do one of them domestic only nvqs but question whether any real changes will come as NICEIC pretty much have a monopoly in all but name over the industry now...
I seriously doubt any meaningful changes will occur, yes there are cowboys on some of these schemes... but there are also a lot of good sparks who may not have the regular conventional qualifications but i would sooner trust them than a fresh faced kid brimming with a glossy nvq certificate anyday of the week.
Yes, we moan about the schemes and the cost but given the amount of money at stake here and the lobbying power of them i do not see any minister changing things too much.

you also confuse industrial electricians with domestic sector... i think the 2 should be completely seperate in how they are policed,afterall part p doesnt really come in to play in industry or big commercial stuff. its the old competent chestnut... with domestics due to the fire risks and safety of people they have rightly tried to bring up standards with the various schemes, on the whole though it has improved things. it may not seem that way but overall i think anybody would say its been largely successful...

It was the ministers decision as to whether we had the competent person schemes we have now, or if (as advised by the select committee) a government rules mandatory system was implemented such as Gas Safe.

The minister changes everything!

With regards to the licensing JIB bit..

Looking at the wider picture, the issue of improving standards and professionalism is the driving force behind the idea of an individual electricians’ licence. The National Board has tasked the JIB to take forward the development of an industry licence, using the ECS card as the platform.

Developing a voluntary licence for electricians in the industry will require the JIB to undertake wide ranging and comprehensive discussions with the relevant industry institutions. We hope they will support the objective of raising professional standards within the industry and taking the industry forward. The aim of the licence is to complement all the existing certification schemes which assess the competence of businesses.

How does the idea of a 'voluntary license' done by the JIB to 'complement' the existing schemes sound?

That's whats coming.

There is no confusion between commercial and domestic. It is employers, contractors, and customers that do that.


quote taken from
Electrical Contractors' Association (ECA) - http://www.eca.co.uk/blog/june-2017/driving-professionalism-across-the-industry?sthash.fuGQBosf.mjjo

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Not aware that licensing has risen to anyone's attention?
If it has, I sincerely hope it doesn't get anywhere.
The statement by the ECA is rather misleading.
At present the JIB requires applicants to hold the 17th edition.
In the past the 16th.
Requiring applicants to hold the 18th is not something new or aimed towards some form of licensing.
Though the JIB has made it's membership list available to Local Authority Building Control departments in an attempt to allow card holder's to not have to join a CPS.
At the end of the day, Licensing will be just another body making money for doing little or nothing.

I think Part P has improved safety in an indirect way.
It has caused a massive increase in the use of testing equipment.

The QS system should be banned.
It is open to abuse, and to my knowledge has led to the rather public death of at least one person.

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

That's perfectly understandable.

I need to be careful not to give too much info away as yet as we have had some leaks of information already and some of our evidence has now been 'removed' so-to-speak.

I can tell you that we are a closed group, for now, mainly consisting of moaners and groaners and we formed on Linkedin.

With 5 minutes on the parliament website we could have your full name, and verbatim account of what you said to the committee in evidence. probably get the video too within a few days. there is no need to be so secretive and cryptic about what you are doing. i personally couldnt much care for who you really are.
However by posting all these things about what appears to be a mini crusade to clean up the industry with a few pals you made on linkedin you are hardly endearing yourself to people on the forum to open up about good and bad bits about the industry. you can petition parliament all you like and have committee meetings all year long but for the next several years barely anything of note is going to happen in this country due to a weak government and brexit dominating everything for at least 2 years.
It seems you are very against the schemes. i admit they have serious failings but i can not for one moment see these disappearing or drastically changing. they may become stricter in there entrance rules but given the government have pushed the competent persons scheme register so heavily they are not now going to confuse joe public and change it.
if there wasn't evidence the schemes flooded the industry with poorly skilled people then, there isnt really now as the same skills are required to join and its not clear accidents or fires have increased. we all have strong views on the schemes and ease of whic hyou can join. incident rates is what it will come down to. and any changes will be fiercely opposed by certsure (niceic/elecsa), napit, stroma etc.. if there was one scheme it would almost certainly go to niceic and too many people would loose money so it wont happen.