in after a cowboy, cooker nearly burnt the house down!

[ExArmy]

I have just been to look at a job where i was asked to install a cooker as the previous one had nearly burned the house down apparently. when i took the cooker out there was a large burnt patch (300m accross), loads of charcoal, almost got through 1/2" ply below . when i pulled out the heat resistant flex i couldn't see where it had been plugged into, but it's likely it was plugged into the ring. it is a 3200W cooker from argos, the customer had got an argos technician out and apparently the cookers fine and it was down to the installation. customer reckons it was sat ontop of the connections and it was bodged up, I did try asking the customer to clarify how the cooker was connected up, but couldn't get much out of her! theres a 2.5 T&E running below the worktop behind the cupboards, not connected to anything but still live? but couldn't find where it came from as all the cupboards are full to the brim!

it's only a small house, 2 up 2 down, it's TT, got a 100mA RCD upfront and a 8 way 3036 board with 3 circuits (ring, lights and shower). ZE is 5-6ish ohms. would it be ok to spur it off the ring to a fused spur above the worktop, and then down to the cooker? an just put it on a minor works?
I'm not entirely sure what the line is about working on a circuit without 30ma RCD protection, do i need to add an RCD first or not?

also, the voltage is 250V at this house, 3200W at 250V is 12.8, so it i put a 13A fuse in the FCU then it will be alright? i seem to remember something from college saying all calculations to be worked out at 230V, in which case the current will be 13.9A and it will be more than the fuse rating. probably never blow, but what should i do here?

 

[sparks1973]

went there today and did an EICR, all circuits were fine suprisingly (ring with 12 points, lighting circuit with 7 points and a shower) and there is bonding installed to the gas and water upon closer inspection, and no earth rod. it looks to me like the supply has been made into a T-NCS outside, but not inside a the service head??

outside i can see a cable coming from what looks like the sheath of a supply cable being connected up to the neutral tail. the 2 tails grouped at the top go all the way along the row of houses and into every house, the 3rd one at the botom just runs straight accross, i lost sight of it as i couldn't go through the end garden. if i test at the top of the main switch with N+E probes on the N I got 0.13 ohms, if i test with the earth on the MET (with only bonding connected) then the reading is 4.9 ohms.
so, i don't really know what sort of supply it is. I am going to have to make an enquiry to the DNO on monday morning. but what do you lot think?

saw something similar a bit back....had been on a rod..but was TN-C-S overhead...they had left a cable clipped direct to the outside wall of the property tapped off the overhead neutral...this cable was just cropped at the base...not good....i got the DNO out to sort it.....

 

[ExArmy]

phoned DNO, was told it should all be PME. so i said where shall i put the earth then as theres nothing at the service head! i think they are coming out to sort it tomorrow, I had to get the customer to phone them and sort it out between themselves apparently

 

[ExArmy]

well the DNO are being pretty useless at the minute, after they told me to get the customer to call them, when the customer phoned up they said they needed to speak to the electrican so i got a call back, i've spoke to several different people now as i keep getting passed about, they seem very reluctant to come and change the service head, yesterday they said "can you not must put an earth rod in?"
supposed to get a call back about it today but not heard owt. boloody useless. the DNO is electricity northwest btw

 

[Guest55]

This is how things stand :
The customer is responsible for any dealings with the elecy board , its their property and they pay the bill - got nowt to do with you or any other spark so dont get involved other to advise your customer.
They're just dragging their feet because any repairs will be at their expense so tell the homeowner to stand firm and insist on at least a site visit by one of their engineers.

 

[ExArmy]

seems backwards to me, i explained to the customer what the situation so she could liase with the DNO direct and she was just baffled with terminology and started panicking when i said theres no incoming earth. hows she supposed to explain to the DNO what the problem is if she doesn't know herself? i'll speak to the customer again tomorrow and explain the hold up.

 

[adoselectrician]

Anything new you do will want an RCD as a rule of thumb. Especially in a kitchen or bathroom as these are classed as 'special locations'

A kitchen isn't a Special location..sorry to put a damper on things.

 

[jay b]

You need rcd regardless if cable is in wall or not as kitchen is regarded as special location

 

[petemadsen]

i have just been to look at a job where i was asked to install a cooker as the previous one had nearly burned the house down apparently. When i took the cooker out there was a large burnt patch (300m accross), loads of charcoal, almost got through 1/2" ply below . When i pulled out the heat resistant flex i couldn't see where it had been plugged into, but it's likely it was plugged into the ring. It is a 3200w cooker from argos, the customer had got an argos technician out and apparently the cookers fine and it was down to the installation. Customer reckons it was sat ontop of the connections and it was bodged up, i did try asking the customer to clarify how the cooker was connected up, but couldn't get much out of her! Theres a 2.5 t&e running below the worktop behind the cupboards, not connected to anything but still live? But couldn't find where it came from as all the cupboards are full to the brim!

It's only a small house, 2 up 2 down, it's tt, got a 100ma rcd upfront and a 8 way 3036 board with 3 circuits (ring, lights and shower). Ze is 5-6ish ohms. Would it be ok to spur it off the ring to a fused spur above the worktop, and then down to the cooker? An just put it on a minor works?
I'm not entirely sure what the line is about working on a circuit without 30ma rcd protection, do i need to add an rcd first or not?

Also, the voltage is 250v at this house, 3200w at 250v is 12.8, so it i put a 13a fuse in the fcu then it will be alright? I seem to remember something from college saying all calculations to be worked out at 230v, in which case the current will be 13.9a and it will be more than the fuse rating. Probably never blow, but what should i do here?

i would suggest that your priority would be ( as well as compliance with any relevant regs ) to protect the client and the property from any future mis-adventure, as well as yourself, so, as you don't know what's within thew walls,
fit the rcd as standard practice !!! Why chance ? Your job is'nt as a croupier in a casino or a game of chance, if you have any doubt at all, always aire on the side of caution and protect,protect,protect........ Yourself included.

 

[Generator]

12.8 or 13.9A ? a 1361 fuse will hold well above 13.9 Amp for evermore! Fuses are not overload devices! - they are for short circuit protection. I wouldn't dream of putting a cooker on 2.5mm cable, or even a spur off a ring - cookers should be separately fed as they can affect the diversity factor for the ring. I know it's only a wee cooker ( almost camping size!),
but what happens when the lady decides she would like a bigger cooker? She might go back to Argos!

 

[trev]

Fuses are not overload devices! - they are for short circuit protection.

Interesting point there mate, even wikipedia mentions overload protection and I wouldn't trust that site as far as I could throw you.

 

[RichieC]

As long as you surface wire it and make sure it is a FCU and not a socket outet you will not require an RCD. However, I would advise you make note of this on the cert. Always have your onsite guide mate, its very handy. Remember this job will need to be notified as its work in a kitchen ( special location ) Good luck!!

 

[Guitarist]

seems backwards to me, i explained to the customer what the situation so she could liase with the DNO direct and she was just baffled with terminology and started panicking when i said theres no incoming earth. hows she supposed to explain to the DNO what the problem is if she doesn't know herself? i'll speak to the customer again tomorrow and explain the hold up.

All you have to do if you are feeling like helping, is what I do...
Get customer to phone DNO and say "I don't understand all this rubbish and want you to talk to my electrician. I hereby authorise him/her to act on my behalf in this matter".
You then phone DNO and sort it out. Works every time for me.

 

[stonejenson]

Keep reading - that para only covers cables in steel conduit or with metallic protection, look on next page under diagram where it talks about circuits that are not in steel conduit or are unprotected - 30mA RCD is required for ALL circuits.
(Sorry, forgot to post quote with this and it came from an earlier page, re-OSG page 28)

 

[drew35]

I think the only way to settle this post is for us all to meet up at a centrally located pub, have a quick drink, and then fight it out in the car park!

We could all bring our OSG and BGB and use them as weapons!

 

[Guitarist]

I think the only way to settle this post is for us all to meet up at a centrally located pub, have a quick drink, and then fight it out in the car park!

We could all bring our OSG and BGB and use them as weapons!

My BGB is encased in a titanium folder....Bring it on.... :13: