Industry failing us

[Jonson]

I just wanted to post a bit of a moan I suppose, i think it's ashame how electrical industry falling to peices, with all these short courses on offer to part time cowboys, what happened to 4 year apprenticeships then calling yourself a spark, no wonder wages are rubbish and standard of work is poor, calling yourself a spark when you have done your theory, do you reckon these guys can bend conduit and submit decent work. I know it's a moan but frustrating for us apprenticeship trained guys, what's other peops views on this

 

[vaughant]

Have to say I`ve always struggled to understand exactly what you learn in a four year installation related apprenticeship,I can only imagine its a lot to do with presentation rather than actual electrical knowledge?My 4 year apprenticeship consisted of relay/contactor control,PLC`s,drives,logic,millons of different types of switching etc,3 phase and a slab of domestic/industrial stuff and a load of other things I`ve long since forgotten.

As stated above,sadly a lot of skill these days is taken up via clever tools and idiot proof fixings etc.
Realistically,in my game with a PLC you can find 75% of the problems,the hard bit is diagnosing why it`s failed or how to mend it but often firms are just paying standby teams for this and just getting lower paid 5 week wonders to do the resets and light fitting changes etc.

I wouldn`t say electricity is a dying industry,sadly it`s a victim of its own success with very clever people continually coming up with new,more efficient ideas to solve problems that often cater to a less labour intensive world,after all,machines don`t generally take sick days when the world cup is on etc!!!

I would suggest in this day and age to specialize more,I got my job in the main due to my vast experience with control electrics,particularly S5 and S7 plc`s as IMO it can be hard for someone to stand out who may have gone down a more traditional path of installation work as it seems everyman and his dog are "electricians" these days.

 

[imago]

As an additional note to my earlier post, I believe that the way that people are trained in school these days has also a lot to do with it. I believe that where things have started to go wrong was when modules was introduced into the C&G. Nowadays, instead of sitting an exam at the end of each year, students don't these days. They now sit exams at the end of every module. Thereby, learning for the exam as opposed to an overall knowledge. Anyone think like wise?

Which is one of the problems with the apprenticeship vs 'all theory up front' debate, apprenticeships aren't what they used to be. The theory part of the training doesn't take anything like four years if it's done all in one hit. So much of the practical side which was learned on the job is no longer required due to changes in specs, materials, methods, tools etc etc So the truth of it is the days of the 'proper' four year apprenticeship are gone for good. That's not to say that it's the end of high standards, quality workmanship and skilled people, just that things, as always, have changed.

 

[UNG]

Alright I'll give you that one mate, pyro certainly ain't as forgiving as conduit or trunking. And jesus trying to straighten out a kink!!!

roller straightners make it a lot easier but I know what you mean having done it the hard way

 

[UNG]

I had a very similar question on MI cable in one of my level 2 exams as well this yr. In fact we was taught nothing on pyro except that we use it instead of MI.

So what is the difference between Pyro and MI:thinking:

 

[bozobro0]

I think the main gripe is that there is alot of time served electricians who are not working at the moment,who are trying to find work,or trying to start up on their own,only to find that a lot of the work they could be doing being done by people who have done the fast track route.I know quite a few time served plumbers who feel the same.
I dont blame anyone for trying to better themselves,and at the end of the day its the governing bodies who are to blame.

 

[UNG]

The fast track route has been around for a long time (any one remember the skillcentres of the 70's and 80's) it's just a lot faster now brought about by Labours ideas on filling the perceived skills shortage and the entrpeneurial companies that are looking to make a quick buck. The only problem these courses have is they don't teach all the skills hence the reason why the electrical industry is becoming so fragmented with some skills becoming specialised areas that where bread and butter skills 20 or 30 years ago. I can understand why the older sparks, myself included find there qualifications eroded because we haven't got an NVQ3 or done an AM2 and the City & Guilds changing courses so they can create another course and exam. The rot set in with the 15th edition a course and exam created to prove you can read and interpret a set of regs and we all know what has happened since. How long will it be before we have to requalify every 5 years

 

[mickys86]

To be honest mate, if I was your gaffer, I wouldn't deem that tray work acceptable (purely from looking at the photo - maybe its just the camera angle), right the bulge in the middle stands out. Head downwards and you've joined the bottom left hand set in two different pieces of tray - from a cost point of view this would of been expensive. Could you not have done the bottom joint in one piece? Now head up, and in my opinion you're missing a fixing (either shallow strut or directly fixed to the wall) one brick up from the top bracket.

Mate I think your confused about what that tray work was for. This was a job in college that was towards my 2330. The bulge in the middle is in fact, a perfectly constructed bridge.
The reason why it is in separate peices because this is what the College asks for.
And as for the missing fixing? I can't see where that is? At the end of the tray work ( at the top ) it is graduated down to the brick so that it is running flush with the wall. Maybe your confused with that?

Thank you for your comments, I'm on here to learn and I do take criticism well because I believe that is how you learn, but one word comes to mind.... Specsavers ;-)

 

[millwall ken]

Mate I think your confused about what that tray work was for. This was a job in college that was towards my 2330. The bulge in the middle is in fact, a perfectly constructed bridge.
The reason why it is in separate peices because this is what the College asks for.
And as for the missing fixing? I can't see where that is? At the end of the tray work ( at the top ) it is graduated down to the brick so that it is running flush with the wall. Maybe your confused with that?

Thank you for your comments, I'm on here to learn and I do take criticism well because I believe that is how you learn, but one word comes to mind.... Specsavers ;-)

Like I said mate, it could be the photo. Still at least you can take constructive criticism without sulking. As for specsavers; well thats your opinion.

But you try speaking to a spark like that on site mate!!!!

 

[ian.settle1]

No mate, I was out for a nice 'romantic' evening with the missus.

Got there, and the service was a joke. So the missus started waffling off about this, that and everything - so naturally my mind started to wonder. Checked out a bird with a lovely top rack, ditto the waitresses' peachy behind BUT then I started to take things in; about the decor... Sloppy paintwork, etc.

Then I noticed the tray and conduit work. So up I got for a closer look at a conduit drop (to a switch), and it had three kinks in it. It was s***e.

I mentioned it to the missus, but it went over her head.

So I started to glance around and I noticed over things like poorly slotted tray, 25mm conduit going into 20mm then back to 25mm (purely because they must of run out of one size pipe or the other but had a few adaptors/reducers knocking about). And my own favourite, they had done a bridge set in the tray over some suspended conduit (which was hanging off of hangers!!!)

The service got worse after the starters; plus there was a group of chavvy birds non-stop laughing over my left shoulder... So I sort of got a bit upset. And rather than row with the missus I started to question the manager on the shoody workmanship. Needless to say, we got asked to leave and I spent three nights on the sofa.

We laugh about it now but it really pee'd me off that a so-called spark would of put his name to such crap workmanship.

Sounds like a C*** resturant if you can see all this while having your meal.

 

[ian.settle1]

So what is the difference between Pyro and MI:thinking:

Someone doesn't know that there is no the difference that is the answer.:earmuffs::bomb2:

 

[AP Electrical]

Take a look around site any site and every trade has changed, nobody is trained the same anymore IMO, there's not the money to do it, all there is is a long production line coming out of colleges with half trained dross falling of the end - I include myself in that statement by the way, Money is king - wait 5-10 years for plug and play to realy kick off, and it becomes basically skilled labour.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

As far as I'm aware for many years the only way to become a qualified ,competant and approved electrician was via a 4/5 year apprenticeship. There's a reason for that. That reason remains and yet the training period gets shorter and shorter. Thats why there are far more incompetant qualified electricians around now than there ever have been.
Many of the basic questions asked on this forum by qualified people make me despair.....we all have to start at the bottom,but the point is under the apprenticeship system you were not let loose unsupervised onto the worlds electrics until you had a proved degree of competance....that is no longer the case.

 

[Electricalserv]

Focus phil a house basher don't make you a spark anyway

Are you for real. So before this word 'Domestic Installer' came around those guys who chose to do electrical work in domestic premises (because someone has to) aren't sparks.


You judge this on the ability to bend conduit? I am sick of these full apprentiship lads knocking everyone else.

I never done an apprentiship but I've been in the trade 6 1/2 years. Both tech certs. 17th Edition & 2391 and I'm not a spark because I do domestic.


You are having a laugh. This is the exact post which makes me have no cause for concern of the full apprentiship lads. You reap what you so.

I hate the 5 day wonders.....The reasoin why because I am competing with them for work daily, aswell as picking up where they left off. Its crap!!!! because they are slowly attacking my trade with no real right to do so. They give me a bad name.


For the likes of you and any other commercial and industrial sparks...it doesn't effect you at all because they aren't attacking your sector.


You only make these comments as you think you are far superior because you sat a full apprentiship and you're good at bending metal. lol You make me laugh.


As previously said the Inspection, Testing, Certification and fault finding sorts the MEN (real sparks) from the BOYS (installation sparks, conduit etc)

 

[Electricalserv]

As far as I'm aware for many years the only way to become a qualified ,competant and approved electrician was via a 4/5 year apprenticeship. There's a reason for that. That reason remains and yet the training period gets shorter and shorter. Thats why there are far more incompetant qualified electricians around now than there ever have been.
Many of the basic questions asked on this forum by qualified people make me despair.....we all have to start at the bottom,but the point is under the apprenticeship system you were not let loose unsupervised onto the worlds electrics until you had a proved degree of competance....that is no longer the case.

What about the other day when someone who sat a full apprentiship, NVQ3, has called me a laborer in the past comes on and asks if its possible to wire a domestic premise in flex and also if her had done an IR test right lol...labourer my butt...full apprentiship my butt!

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Are you for real. So before this word 'Domestic Installer' came around those guys who chose to do electrical work in domestic premises (because someone has to) aren't sparks.


You judge this on the ability to bend conduit? I am sick of these full apprentiship lads knocking everyone else.

I never done an apprentiship but I've been in the trade 6 1/2 years. Both tech certs. 17th Edition & 2391 and I'm not a spark because I do domestic.


You are having a laugh. This is the exact post which makes me have no cause for concern of the full apprentiship lads. You reap what you so.

I hate the 5 day wonders.....The reasoin why because I am competing with them for work daily, aswell as picking up where they left off. Its crap!!!! because they are slowly attacking my trade with no real right to do so. They give me a bad name.


For the likes of you and any other commercial and industrial sparks...it doesn't effect you at all because they aren't attacking your sector.


You only make these comments as you think you are far superior because you sat a full apprentiship and you're good at bending metal. lol You make me laugh.


As previously said the Inspection, Testing, Certification and fault finding sorts the MEN (real sparks) from the BOYS (installation sparks, conduit etc)

Electricalserv re-my previous post which may give the impression that I think anyone who has not completed an apprenticeship is incompetant.
That is not my view.....but my view is that since the apprenticeship route was largely abandoned there has been a significant rise in the number of qualified people who dont have a flamin' clue.I dont incude you in that because I respect your knowledge in your posts and have no reason to devalue your work having not seen it.

 

[Electricalserv]

Electricalserv re-my previous post which may give the impression that I think anyone who has not completed an apprenticeship is incompetant.
That is not my view.....but my view is that since the apprenticeship route was largely abandoned there has been a significant rise in the number of qualified people who dont have a flamin' clue.I dont incude you in that because I respect your knowledge in your posts and have no reason to devalue your work having not seen it.

What about the member who I descibe who is a so called time served spark directing a company but has to ask if its possible to wire domestic in flex and if he did and IR test right on a plug!!!

 

[Electricalserv]

Electricalserv re-my previous post which may give the impression that I think anyone who has not completed an apprenticeship is incompetant.
That is not my view.....but my view is that since the apprenticeship route was largely abandoned there has been a significant rise in the number of qualified people who dont have a flamin' clue.I dont incude you in that because I respect your knowledge in your posts and have no reason to devalue your work having not seen it.

My post wasn't aimed at you wirepuller. I am all for apprentiships would have loved to have done one. Never got the chance, no employer would back me financialy.

Just when people knock you as a spark because you never sat one and judge it on conduit.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Nobody,especially me...is going to claim that all apprentice trained sparks are the dogs danglies......The point I made, and stand by is that since fast track training became the norm there has been a significant increase in incompetance....Yes there are incompetant apprentice trained electricians,just as there are incompetant quickie electricians....but there is a lot more incompetance now than there ever was.

 

[electromonkey]

Could it be that because the industry is regulated more so than ever, that poor standard installations are more noticeable than in the past? I can't say I've encountered too many problems to date from brown and blue installations.

 

[nickblake]

be honest the trade is like driving once you past your test you start to learn to drive same with this industry once you get qualified you then start to learn and you keep learning and always will

 

[mickys86]

Like I said mate, it could be the photo. Still at least you can take constructive criticism without sulking. As for specsavers; well thats your opinion.

But you try speaking to a spark like that on site mate!!!!

Sulking?? Far from sulking mate and all of the sparks I've worked with have been able to take a joke so as long as I'm not on site with u one day I think I'll get by just fine

 

[mickys86]

Nobody,especially me...is going to claim that all apprentice trained sparks are the dogs danglies......The point I made, and stand by is that since fast track training became the norm there has been a significant increase in incompetance....Yes there are incompetant apprentice trained electricians,just as there are incompetant quickie electricians....but there is a lot more incompetance now than there ever was.

Arguably the best comment on this thread

 

[millwall ken]

Sulking?? Far from sulking mate and all of the sparks I've worked with have been able to take a joke so as long as I'm not on site with u one day I think I'll get by just fine

Top man, believe me you'd love to work with me mate. I though that you said that you could take criticism? Obviously you can't though, as you choose to reply with sarky comments.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Lets not get personal fella's......:cool3:

 

[VoltzElectrical]

What about the member who I descibe who is a so called time served spark directing a company but has to ask if its possible to wire domestic in flex and if he did and IR test right on a plug!!!

My question about wiring a house in flex was fully explained on the thread. And YES, I DID ask about doing a test on an appliance, because testing appliances is something new to me. I've never been afraid to ask about things that are new to me. What's so wrong with that?

Don't try and goad me into an argument, because it's not there.

 

[VoltzElectrical]

TBH these threads are only ending one way - thread closed. Rightly so, 'cos we can't seem to get it together as a trade. At least that's what it seems on these bitchin' threads.

Right now, I couldn't give a hoot.

Any one who wants to further contribute and fuel this pointless exercise, then carry on.

I'll continue to add where I feel I can contribute usefully.

And I'll seek advice when I need to too.

I don't expect to be berated for either.

Where I am right now, I'll go back to teaching.

Don't bother to reply, I ain't interested.

 

[grimysparks80]

II would have loved to have done a 'proper apprenticeship'. I actually started with a good firm doing a college refurb who offered me one, but was laid off before it started. (my own fault. too much drinking, not enough working) It took a me over a year to find someone else to take me on and that was on the basis that i sorted out and paid for my college myself and worked 4 days a week while doing it. i did the 236 pts 1 & 2 and wasnt allowed out on my own until id passed my exams and the other sparks agreed i was ready.
It wasnt too far from an apprenticeship and i was lucky to be paired with a really good spark who genuinley cared about teaching me properly.
Looking back i would have been just as good at my job if id never been to college and terrible if id only been to college.
I think its the onsite training from experienced sparks thats really missing from fast track courses and causing a lot of problems in this industry.
Having said that there are always exeptions to the rule and i knew one really good spark who was virtually self taught.

 

[Engineer54]

Just when people knock you as a spark because you never sat one and judge it on conduit.

I think a lot of the reasons the time served older electricians quote conduit, is that so few coming out of these short training periods these days can work in it , or trunking come to that!!!

They also know that most of this new influx of electricians are only being trained (if you can call it that) to a standard to be able to undertake domestic type installations. That as you say, this is now beginning to affect the domestic side of the industry adversely, mainly by the lack of competency that was once taken for granted. Not really these new boy's fault, but the very real lack of training and experience, in all areas i would say, not just on the practical hands on side, but the theory side of things too....

As for those knocking you, those here should know from your previous comments on conduit, on other threads, that your not into conduit work, Not that you can't bend conduit, you have stated many times you can and have in the past, just that it's not your thing.... That doesn't degrade you from being a fully qualified electrician in my book, far from it....

 

[Electricalserv]

My question about wiring a house in flex was fully explained on the thread. And YES, I DID ask about doing a test on an appliance, because testing appliances is something new to me. I've never been afraid to ask about things that are new to me. What's so wrong with that?

Don't try and goad me into an argument, because it's not there.

Not goading you at all. Just stateing factual matter. You call me a labourer but ask some bad questions for a time served spark. Philpot

 

[grimysparks80]

I agree. some sparks talk about conduit and tray as if its the be all and end all. As a domestic spark i occasionally use conduit and never use tray.
It doent make me a bad spark. Its just not appropriate in the work i do.

P.S. how do you get those speech bubbles to show up?
Im just clicking reply with quote and it looks much better the way you guys are doing it.

 

[VoltzElectrical]

Not goading you at all. Just stateing factual matter. You call me a labourer but ask some bad questions for a time served spark. Philpot

At least you spelt my last name correctly, and you have internet access to companies house.

Show me a thread where I said I was a time served spark.

Show me a thread where I stated i was an all singing spark like YOU mr 2391.

I'M going to bed now before I tell you what 99% of people here know what you are.

Because of what you are, you got banned before. You're a troll. and 99% of us hope you wither on the vine. It was so easy to spot your reemergence DoBBY because you're translucent.

You do what you do. You ain't no labourer, but you don't help yourself with your comments. 99% of us here wish you would ...off and leave us with a tidy forum.

Scum

 

[alarm man]

and i thought i was bitter...cough..:whatchutalkingabout

 

[sparks_114]

Oh one day there'll be so many jobs going round you all will be too occupied to do this to each other. Oh that day where is it!

 

[ezzzekiel]

I stand by what i say that being able to bend a bit of steel has sod all to do with electric and is a skill that can be learned very quickly.

electrical theory as taught now is what counts, understanding how electric can be put to work safely is the key factor after that it all depends on wether you can knock a nail in or how long it takes you to learn.

To the original op:
I hold the current quals and about 10 years experience,
2330 level 3
2391
2382
2377
nvq3
jib approved
Napit part p

Do i deserve to hold the title "electician" ?

 

[richy3333]

I just wanted to post a bit of a moan I suppose, i think it's ashame how electrical industry falling to peices, with all these short courses on offer to part time cowboys, what happened to 4 year apprenticeships then calling yourself a spark, no wonder wages are rubbish and standard of work is poor, calling yourself a spark when you have done your theory, do you reckon these guys can bend conduit and submit decent work. I know it's a moan but frustrating for us apprenticeship trained guys, what's other peops views on this

This type of thread comes up regularly and to be honest, I for one am becoming very bored of it. It always generates pages of moaning and vitriol between forum members on what is usually a very friendly forum.

I've come across 'Time served'/apprenticed sparks that were good, I've come across 'Time served'/apprenticed sparks that were rubbish. I've come across sparks that got their qualifications by doing a short course and were good, I've come across similar people that shouldn't be let loose on a Lego train set. Either way there are good and bad electricians.

I've seen plenty of people pass their Part P that shouldn't ever have done - but that's a different argument to what the OP was complaining about.

Evolution occurs in all industries, whether we like it or not. If you dont like the system then do something about changing the industry. Similarly there has always been competition in all industries. OK, nowadays we have to compete against apprenticed/short course sparks. Plus there are the DIY brigade and customer perception on what jobs should cost and what they are prepared to pay.

But one thing is for sure, moaning on here will get nothing accomplished apart from allowing you to vent your spleen and upset people?

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Nice post Richy333...makes a lot of sense.
But how do you pass a part P?......unless your talking about the morning after eating a copy of the document....:wacko:.

 

[Dave Buchan]

Well here we are again, I think I've said this before but I'll say it again anyway "It all boils down to supply and demand!"

I invite anybody who is reading this post to scroll down the forum sponsors on the right and count how many training centres are advertising to train up average joe bloggs into a budding electrician.

There is alot of government money getting pushed into these centres to drive the unemployment numbers down, but if you're involved within the industry the knock on effect is that wages will come down also as the supply of qualified people increase.

Yes the most technically competent will always get first refusal for the right to work the only difference now being at the cost of a reduced wage packet. If they refuse the potential employer or client simply just moves down the que.

In pub terminology "You can't get a pint into a half pint glass!" it's as simple as that

 

[Engineer54]

I stand by what i say that being able to bend a bit of steel has sod all to do with electric and is a skill that can be learned very quickly.

electrical theory as taught now is what counts, understanding how electric can be put to work safely is the key factor after that it all depends on wether you can knock a nail in or how long it takes you to learn.

To the original op:
I hold the current quals and about 10 years experience,
2330 level 3
2391
2382
2377
nvq3
jib approved
Napit part p

Do i deserve to hold the title "electician" ?

I agree with the vast majority of what you say here, but conduit is still a major part of the electrical industry and has everything to do with electrics, as it's probably the most used form of electrical containment. So yes, it should still be seen as part of the the skills required by electricians. I'm not saying it makes you a better electrician, or that you have to like undertaking conduit installations, or even steer well clear of the stuff, but as an electrician you should have a level of skill in such installations.

Personally, i didn't find bending pipe easy, it took a lot of practice at the time, to become proficient. Bending pipe to augment steelwork and other fixtures in industrial installations, requires a decent level of skill at the end of the day....

 

[sbrown2]

I'm rubbish with conduit. Wanna know why?......Because I haven't used it for ages!!!! But give me half a day and the correct kit and away I go. I've only ever done one complete rewire, my own house. Rewiring a house quickly, with a family in it, I beleive, is an artform. Of which most of it is not about electrical skills.
My belief is that in any trade we need to have basic skills which are shared across not just the electrical trade ie to select tools, how to use tools safely, how to use measure things etc. Its then the theory that makes me become electrician. I think the point we miss is that there are different types of electricians and different levels ie mining electrician at craft or technician level or as has been updated in the EAS yesterday domestic electrical technician or a domestic electrical installer
The constant knocking during this thread is pointless. In my view, if a thirty year old bloke starts training to be a electricain he should already have the basic engineering knowledge that I discussed and therefore a shorter training period should be required for becoming an electrician.

 

[ezzzekiel]

but conduit is still a major part of the electrical industry and has everything to do with electrics,

but so is a marine electrican, panel wireman, linesman, maintenance spark etc etc etc so going by the bending conduit reference if your not carrying out conduit bending in any of these roles or a million other within the industry then your not a spark?

Dont get me wrong YES it is a required skill needed depending on your role, but to imply your not an electrician on this basis alone (not your reference - but to the op) is in my opinion an insult to all the men getting up and going to work everyday as electricians where there particular job does not require them to work with conduit. At least 5 years since i worked on a large installation which required tray and conduit work so i now no longer qualify?