Installer swapped make of panel without telling me

[dave12321]

Hi I am new here and hoping someone can help me with this. I had agreed for a 4kw kyocera system to be installed and after a few delays the firm turned up and fitted panels called "emmvee". They are ES-250 M60B panels and look fine but i am worried regarding the quality as these are made in India and I paid extra to avoid any of the cheap chinese panels. They didnt tell me about the change and even the final invoice stated kyocera so i questioned it when the mcs certificate didnt match. They claim these are a quality panel and cost the same as kyocera which where £1300 more than Hyundia. It is also coupled to a fronius 3600w invertor which i would have thought should have been 4000w for this system. Does anybody know if these are any good and if the invertor does match the panels. Thanks in advance Dave

 

[SRE]

Haven' t heard of emmvee panels before are you sure that's how you spell it?

It's unlikely but not impossible that these panels will be as good as Kyocera. There are 2 particularly good Chinese panels in circulation at the minute which would produce a higher yield than Kyocera and for a cheaper price.

The Fronius inverter is an excellent choice you don't put the same size of inverter as your panels kwp. It's a mistake that customers often make. What I would be doing is asking for the 20 year extended warranty.

Having said all of that - the point that almost all of my customers have missed is that availability until this weekend has been virtually zilch. Our stock was already ordered but if it hadn't been we'd have had problems. As a result of reduced availability prices have increased significantly from some wholesalers and all installers are having to pay cash upfront for every order.

We're a small company and we had to find 120k in a week, imagine what it's been like for anyone with more than a dozen jobs booked in let alone the vat issue of not being able to reclaim the 20% we're charged for 3 months (remember we only charge the customer 5% and have to stand the difference every quarter ourselves).

Should the installer have changed the panels without you permission? - Not on your life. Should you have accepted alternative panels? You may have had to make a decision about making the change or not installing - only you can do that and the installer would probably be happy either way as your installation date would have been very quickly allocated to another customer that would have otherwise been turned away. We turned away as many as we installed.

I'd be surprised if Emmve cost the same as Kyocera but the solar pv industry is such turmoil it's posiible although I think unlikely. One of our last customers wanted Sanyo panels and we couldn't get hold of them. We sourced a European alternative for him that we frequently use and reduced his costs by about £1350. He's delighted with the result.

On the basis that they haven't provided what you agreed to on the signed order I wouldn't be paying my final invoice until I had a clear explanation of why they didn't advise you and the price differential.

It's pretty sharp practice but not suprising in the current conditions.

 

[TJLinks]

What would you rather have, the panels you have had fitted and 43p FiT, or wait for the Kyoceras and risk only getting 21p FiT? I know the one I would choose.....

 

[SRE]

"Choice" being the operative word :yesnod:

 

[SolarCity]

Of course availability of panels is a major issue but if another panel is used then the price should be adjusted accordingly.

 

[Yanman]

They should have given you the option with money off for what are likely to be cheaper panels. Still now you have solar installed your friends will all Emvee you.......sorry couldn't resist it.

 

[dave12321]

They should have given you the option with money off for what are likely to be cheaper panels. Still now you have solar installed your friends will all Emvee you.......sorry couldn't resist it.

Very good! I understand the problems the government have imposed on the industry and may have accepted what I would think are inferior and practically unheard of panels due to the shortages of equipment. Its more a case of being unhappy at what I see as them trying to con me and the possible warrany implications should Emmvee go bust. If they had come round 6 weeks ago which is when i ordered the system and tried to sell me Indian made panels for the price of kyocera I would have shown them the door. Its not possible to with hold any of the final payment due to the feed in tarrif provider wanting an invoice marked fully paid. The solution my installer has given me is pay for the system and when he can get the kyocera panels he will come round and change them although he hasn't put this in writing. It does seem to be performing fine at the moment with 10 units produced in the 2 days since it was fitted and a highest reading of 2.7kwh. Thanks Dave

 

[SRE]

I can only speak from my perspective but it would be cheaper and much less hassle to just reduce the bill. I certainly wouldn't be offering to change panels at a later date - that would be my margin on that job gone, never mind the hassle sorting out the MCS certificate, letting the utility company and the DNO it's a different panel and being left with panels with no value because they aren't a new install and therefore not eligible for Fit!

If you haven't got it in writing don't assume it will be done. Ask for a reduction appropriate to the cost of the cheaper panels. You've still got 10 days at the very least to get you system registered.

 

[powervan]

lots of advise!!! as most said
1/ be happy ur 43.3p
2/ they should inform u of diff between panels (cost)
3/ sleep well knowing u r getting 43.3p for next 25YRS!!!!!lots wont be even if they got kyoceras panels!!

 

[dingledong]

that rate will change within the next 25 years trust me downwards that is

 

[powervan]

what!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! u saying GOVERMENT wont keep there promise!!!!!!!!!!!!!!NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Scooby]

Dave, it looks like there are good points and not so good with your situation. The obvious big goodie is that you have a system installed which appears to be working well and you should be able to comfortably apply for the current FIT rate.

The not-s-g is that no-one on here seems to have heard of your panels... Also n-s-g is that you say your installer wasn't up-front and honest about the swap. However, that situation isn't as clear as it could be as you then state that they plan to replace them when the originals become available again - which is it?!

Where did you find the manufacturer's name, and how do you know they are Indian?

 

[moggy1968]

I have managed to secure branded panels (Bosch, Schuco etc) for all my customers even though as a small company we have had to get them as we go along (much jiggling of orders, deposits and payments!)
I think, yes you should be glad you got something, but I think you have an inferior product and should be asking for an adjustment. without knowing what you paid it's hard to tell you how much you might get but I would push for it as they are in breach of contract. I would expect to be informed of what panels were being used and if a cheaper product has been used (which is how it appears) then I would expect a price adjustment

 

[powervan]

they come with a free onion bargeeeeeeeee with every panel)))))))))))))))))))

 

[dave12321]

Dave, it looks like there are good points and not so good with your situation. The obvious big goodie is that you have a system installed which appears to be working well and you should be able to comfortably apply for the current FIT rate.

The not-s-g is that no-one on here seems to have heard of your panels... Also n-s-g is that you say your installer wasn't up-front and honest about the swap. However, that situation isn't as clear as it could be as you then state that they plan to replace them when the originals become available again - which is it?!

Where did you find the manufacturer's name, and how do you know they are Indian?

Yes that is right even his final bill stated Kyocera its just that i noticed Emmvee on the mcs certificate. When challenged he said he couldnt get Kyocera and thought his secretary had informed me even though he put Kyocera on the invoice! I then reasearched them that night and found they where Indian manufactured with some german parts. Here is a link to there website. News EMMVEE Photovoltaics I then contacted him again the next day and he then said if I wasnt happy he would change them when the correct panels become available. Really dont think he will do this though as he hasnt put it in writing and would involve considerable time and expense in re errecting the scaffold etc. The problem with a price adjustment is he claims they cost the same and are as good and I cant find prices for either Emmvee or Kyocera panels. He has never suggested a price reduction. I paid £12000 for a 4kw system and the cheapest price I had at the time by phoneing a few companys was £9600 using chinese panels. Thanks Dave